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Originally Posted by Stewart
That's why I like to trot out the old Stephen Fry line on religious objections to free speech: "So you're offended. So fucking what?"
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Nice one. ~~LOL~~
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Originally Posted by Mirabell
... Third, it doesn't apply to christians, at leat not in Europe. The point is, after all, not criticism of religion, but a racializing of religious criticism. How you segued from clearly non-religious criticism of Israel to the point of religious criticism is remarkable and disturbing at the same time...
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Um. I also "segued" into mentioning racism, since we're talking about the roots of some criticism, but you have chosen to be selective about what I posted. In the UK, criticism of religion has led to complaints. It's led to death threats – actual death threats – from Christians (against BBC directors). It's led to court cases charging people with blasphemy. The 'threat' of being expected to abide by a law that everyone else will be expected to abide by (equality legislation pertaining to sexuality) had senior Catholic clerics in the UK threatening to close down children's homes – that's blackmail, simple as). The same church has threatened to withdraw communion from any members who are MPs, who do not vote against abortion at any opportunity – sod what the constitutents that they've been elected to represent want. I know of a case in the north west where an evangelical church is attempting to have a local shop that sells 'New Age' stuff and talks about witchcraft and such nonsense closed down by the council. This is the UK – how 'radical' do you think we should wait for before raising these things?
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Originally Posted by Mirabell
... Yes, Islam, religion blabla. BUt the point is that "Islam" has been racialized. If you look at the discourse, and this includes images, a certain ethnic provenience has become synonymous with "Islam". This is what racializing means. Using a non-racial concept such as "islam" in a way that clearly connotes race. It's insidious but common. And yes, on the surface you can keep on talking about religion all you like. Usually the way you frame it gives you away...
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Eh? This is political correctness, Mirabell. You're apparently accusing me of something that you don't even spell out properly. It very much seems that you're looking for things to take umbrage at – hence you're accusing me of 'segueing' into one thing without observing that I'd also 'segued' into something else too. I don't know – perhaps that's because you live in a country where public breast beating over the crimes of history is expected, even demanded?
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Originally Posted by Mirabell
... That's why "oh but what abiut christians" is bull. They are not racialized. We here know full well that there are loads of different kinds of christians. There are certain subgroups which are, indeed, racialized but thatÄs not interesting for the main point.
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So they're not radicalised but some are radicalised.
Yup, that makes sense. Particularly as you're now effectively falling for the line that all Muslims – that Islam per se – has been radicalised. That's as crass as asserting that all Irish Catholics were in or supported the IRA. There are real issues with Islam, but I'm amused about your implied assertion that all Muslims see themselves as one racial group. I promise you, the Muslims where I live in the east of London do not all see themselves in that way. The Turkish Muslims do not see themselves as the same as the Pakistani Muslims. There is a crossing over into the racial issue amongst some – the idea that 'Muslim brothers' are being persecuted etc – but it is not a universal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabell
... And no one called for a complete "Stop" in criticism of Israel. No one I ever heard, or read did that. stopping a certain kind of criticism, yes. a complete stop of criticism of the way the current or past governments act? Possibly a few nutjobs, but there are always those. So what rhetorical purpose does that quoted question of yours serve? That's for me to know and for you to find out. God am I didactic today. Ugh...
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I pointed out, in response to a number of posts (I didn't raise the subject) that criticism of the state of Israel is not synonymous with anti-semitism. Now I'm being subjected to a form of inquisition, from which there is, apparently, no escape. The way in which much of this is framed is that my 'motives' need to be explored. My 'segueing' indicates things. My 'record' gives me away. It's funny, it's Orwellian – and it's insidious.* And the implied suggestion that only criticism of the state of Israel that has dubious motives has been subject to the accusation of anti-semitism is naive at best. But you and others here are showing that it works.
* That is not to say that I object to having this discussion, BTW.
Note: as a very slight aside, but for the sake of a bit of context, I live and work very near to where the 7/7 bombs were detonated. Colleagues helped those from the bus bomb around the corner. And before that, the windows of my home have been rattled by IRA bombs. A number of incidents have been far too close for comfort. As such, I don't take terrorism lightly – whatever the motives.