Flemish-English transl of "Ik ben van den buiten"

[litbirthdays]

I put a poem by Rene de Clercq on my blog - litbirthdays.com for November 14, 2009 - his birthday.

The poem with partially completed machine translation is below. Can anyone help fix? Thanks,
litbirthdays
----------------
Ren? de Clercq (b. 1877) ? Flemish (Belgian) poet Ik ben van den buiten

Ik kreeg van mijn ouders, / From my parents I got


Van ieder mijn part, / What I am ? every part,
Van mijn vader mijn schouders, / From my father my shoulders,
Van moeder mijn hart. / From my mother my heart.
Ik vocht om mijn stuiten / I fought for my face
Met zuster en broer. / With sister and brother.
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Bij d?eigensten pachter, / A private tenant
Eerst koeier, dan knecht, / First herder, then servant,
Mijn klakke van achter,
Mijn hoofd immer recht, / My head always right,
Zoo dien ?k om mijn duiten / _____ _____ ____ my coins
En teer op mijn toer. / And ____ on my _____.
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Ik zout en ik zaaie, / I salt and I sow,
Ik eg en ik ploeg, / I ____ and I plow,
Ik mest en ik maaie, / I mulch and I mow,
Ik zweet en ik zwoeg, / I sweat and I toil,
Ik klets in de kluiten, / I chat in the rows,
Ik glets in de moer.
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


En hebben de zeisens / And there are the seasons
Gezinderezind;
De mallende meisens
De wagens gepint; / The wagons _____;
Dan zit ik te fluiten, / Then I sit and whistle,
Van boven op ?t voer: /
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!

[Eric]

Ren? de Clercq (1877-1932). I have to say that I'm reasonably well up on Dutch and Flemish literature, but seem to have missed him. Knew nothing about him till I looked at the Wikipedia. I see that he died in Maartensdijk, Netherlands, where my cousin's husband used to run a barometer museum, of all things.

As for machine translation, it is certainly a good way of getting some idea of the poem, but it then needs polishing and adding to by someone who knows both Dutch and English well, not least the idiomatic Flemish expressions likely to appear in this poem. I'll now have a look at the gaps, which are usually the tricky bits, where the online dictionary is inadequate, or the words are ambiguous.

As the language is slightly olde worlde here, and online dictionaries tend to reflect the usage of the 21st century, the machine will not have picked up some words, spelt in an older, Flemish, way.

A word on the use of "Dutch" and "Flemish". The language is called Dutch, even in Belgium. The Flemings (Dutch-speakers living in the northern half of Belgium) speak Flemish dialects, write Flemish literature, live in a Flemish environment; but the language they write in, allowing for regional usage, is Dutch.

[Eric]

Let's have a shot at clearing up a few of the mysteries. I too don't know everything, because of the idiomatic Flemish usage. I'm not trying for perfect rhyme and rhythm now, simply to identify what the words actually mean. But as I've said, the machine didn't do badly:

Ik kreeg van mijn ouders, / I got from my parents

Van ieder mijn part, / From each my part,
Van mijn vader mijn schouders, / From my father my shoulders,
Van moeder mijn hart. / From my mother my heart.
Ik vocht om mijn stuiten / I fought for my wallops???
Met zuster en broer. / With sister and brother.
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Bij d?eigensten pachter, / By the same tenant farmer
Eerst koeier, dan knecht, / First herdsman, then servant,
Mijn klakke van achter, / My heels facing backwards
Mijn hoofd immer recht, / My head always straight,
Zoo dien ?k om mijn duiten / And so I earn my keep
En teer op mijn toer. / And gamble in turn??? [I'm not sure here]
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Ik zout en ik zaaie, / I salt and I sow,
Ik eg en ik ploeg, / I harrow and I plow,
Ik mest en ik maaie, / I add manure and mow,
Ik zweet en ik zwoeg, / I sweat and I toil,
Ik klets in de kluiten, / I chat in the clods,
Ik glets in de moer. / I slide in the mud [I'm not sure here, either]
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!

En hebben de zeisens / And if the scythes
Gezinderezind; / Have glittered;
De mallende meisens / The maddening maidens
De wagens gepint; / Pegged??? the wagons; [Not sure here, either]
Dan zit ik te fluiten, / Then I sit and whistle,
Van boven op ?t voer: / On top of the hay:
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!

*

Well, we're getting nearer. But nota bene, you can't just use a Dutch-English dictionary to find the meanings. You have to have access to, for instance, a couple of dictionaries that give southern Dutch (including Flemish) usage. Even then, as Flemish dialects are so varied, you may not always find what you are looking for.

[peter_d]

Hi Eric,

Wonderful! What a lovely poem is this. I must admit that I had never heard about De Clercq before. Two remarks:

En teer op mijn toer. / And gamble in turn??? [I'm not sure here]
I intuitively interpreted 'teer' as stemming from 'verteren', and so it might mean 'to eat'. This use of the word 'teren' also comes back in the saying 'op andermans zak teren', meaning that you are eating (or more broadly living) from someone else's money. When you interpret it in this poem as 'to eat' the person in the poem sketches the daily ?normal? routine of a farmer: do your daily work to earn your money in order to be able to eat.

Ik klets in de kluiten, / I chat in the clods
I doubt whether 'klets' can be translated with 'chat' here. I think 'klets' refers to the sound that comes from stepping around in the grassy mud (de kluiten). That option would also connect better to the next line which I think you translated perfectly. Nowadays the Dutch word 'kletsen' has the rather neutral meaning of to chat, but it's not even that long ago that it had a much more negative connotation. I think that in the time of De Clercq the use of 'kletsen' would mean something like 'to gossip'. That's why I think it refers to the sound of splashing (?) around in the clods.

De wagens gepint; / Pegged??? the wagons; [Not sure here, either]
Like you, I'm not sure, but could this have something to do with the Flemmish verb 'pinten' that means 'drinking a pint' in other words, 'drinking beer?' Perhaps the ladies come out to the field to bring some beer after the work has been done... I can see the guy in the poem sitting on top of the hay whisteling, with a nice pint of beer in his hand.

I hope it's clear and it makes sense.

[Eric]

I have copies of both Nijhoff's "Zuidnederlands woordenboek" (1981) and the "Vlaams-Nederlands woordenboek" (2003) published by De Standaard / Het Spectrum. So I did a bit more looking up there. I missed some things yesterday, which I've returned to, now that Peter has given some good clues.

With the teren and toer, I found out that there were connections with gambling, but I agree, looking again at my Nijhoffs, that the verb means holding a feast (usually, the dictionary says, on a saint's day). Nijhoffs has a long entry for toer. In southern Dutch op toer evidently means in turn. So maybe "I go to feasts when I can" (maybe for a free meal).

Looking again at klets, I agree entirely that it has more to do with mud than chatter (c.f. the expression kletsnat). So as Peter suggests, squelching around in the clods.

I don't know whether pints of beer come in here. I found the expression voor de pinne(n) komen meaning to appear, turn up. and with halen means brings or takes out something. Or it could be putting a wedge under the wheels to prevent the wagons from rolling away. I'm not one to reject explanations with beer (indeed, weather permitting, I hope to drink a Westmalle Tripel this afternoon), but maybe something else is meant here. Nevertheless, the Nijhoffs gives pinten as "drinking a lot of beer". It's just that I don't understand how the wagons fit in. If it was "Op / aan de wagens gepint" I would have understood right away.

Anyway, this all shows how poetry with a mild tinge of dialect can cause a few problems.

[litbirthdays]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your excellent work and care to translate this.

I took some "literary license" which you might want to challenge -- it's okay, I'm open to more edits -- but this is what I came up with, based on your suggestions:

Ik ben van den buiten

Ik kreeg van mijn ouders, / From my parents I got
Van ieder mijn part, / What I am -- every part,
Van mijn vader mijn schouders, / From my father my shoulders,
Van moeder mijn hart. / From my mother my heart.
Ik vocht om mijn stuiten / I fought for my face
Met zuster en broer. / With sister and brother.
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Bij d'eigensten pachter, / A farmer and tenant
Eerst koeier, dan knecht, / First herdsman, then servant,
Mijn klakke van achter, / My heels to the back
Mijn hoofd immer recht, / My head facing front,
Zoo dien 'k om mijn duiten / So I earn my keep
En teer op mijn toer. / And feast on my feed.
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Ik zout en ik zaaie, / I salt and I sow,
Ik eg en ik ploeg, / I till and I plow,
Ik mest en ik maaie, / I manure and I mow,
Ik zweet en ik zwoeg, / I sweat and I toil,
Ik klets in de kluiten, / I slog through the rows,
Ik glets in de moer. / I slide in the mud.
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


En hebben de zeisens / And here are the scythes
Gezinderezind; / Shimmering;
De mallende meisens / The maddening maidens
De wagens gepint; / The wagons with pints;
Dan zit ik te fluiten, / Then sit I and whistle,
Van boven op 't voer: / On top of the hay,
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!
================================


Re: "I fought for my face" -- I think he is making a little joke, pun -- the author is trying to say he and his brothers and sisters have their parents' features, and they "fought" for their looks with each other, the way they might "fight" for some tasty portion of food at the dinner table.

Re: "immer rech" -- I tried to keep the sense of contrast that the author is presenting -- keep yourself facing forward -- so I changed "always right" to "facing front"

Re: gepint -- the image that comes to mind is "beer wagons" but that really has a discordant sound in this poem, so I chose "wagons with pints" as awkward as that might seem, it somehow keeps with the rhythm a little better.

And now, since you have done so well with this difficult translation, I wonder if you might want to have a quick look at the other Dutch translation I did last week for November 13 -- Nico Scheepmaker's birthday:

Een sober leven - A Sober Life


Ik heb nooit hasj gerookt, en zelfs geen sigaret
I've never smoked hash, nor even a cigarette
Heeft mijn gestel ooit kunnen ondergraven
It could sabotage my system
Wat dat betreft behoor ik tot de braven
In that respect I am one of the brave
Die conformistisch zijn van foetus tot skelet
The conformists are in the fetal position

Hoewel, wat wil dat zeggen: conformisme
But what does that mean: conformist
Als al je vrienden en vriendinnen roken
If all your friends smoke
En met die bouillabaisse de as mee koken
And put their ashes in the bouillabaisse
Niet-roken is een vorm van nihilisme
Not-smoking is a form of nihilism

Als Brave Hendrik sta je aan de kant
If you stand on the side like Brave Hendrik
(Met het gelijk uitbundig aan je zijde)
(With the same enthusiasm)
En je ziet toe: de typisch uitgewijde
And you see repeatedly: the typical wide break
Met hooguit een gebaksvork in je hand
With at most a cake fork in your hand

God geve dat ik eens, als oude man
God grant me once, before I am an old man
De weg naar de verslaving vinden kan.
Directions to the road to addiction.

[Eric]

This thread is becoming quite fun really. A kind of workshop, with input from various sources. A few comments on the sober life poem. Looks mostly fine to me. Just the odd comment:

I think "undermine" would be an improvement on "sabotage".

"Put their ashes" gives the wrong (?) impression of cremation. "Put their ash" is unambiguous.

"Brave Hendrik" is a metaphorical figure. Who would we have in English? Not "Hooray Henry" which is confined to upper-class fools, but something similar.

You would surely "stand aside".

"Uitgewijde" surely means "uitverkoren" or "chosen". Not sure, though. That one's for Peter.

"As an old man" rather than "before I am an old man".

[peter_d]

Indeed, quite fun. I have always liked all kinds of puzzles: cryptograms, crosswords, sudokus and now poetry translations...

1. Heeft mijn gestel ooit kunnen ondergraven
It could sabotage my system

I'd go with Eric to say 'undermine', but why not stick even closer to the original by saying

... nor even a cigarette
did ever undermine my system

2. Wat dat betreft behoor ik tot de braven
In that respect I am one of the softies (too popular a term maybe, but here 'de braven' clearly has a touch of self mockery)

3. Die conformistisch zijn van foetus tot skelet
The conformists are in the fetal position (I don't know. I think it continues from the previous line: he considers himself one of the softies and one of the conformists from well before birth (feotus) to well after death (skeleton)

4. En je ziet toe: de typisch uitgewijde
(You stand aside and look: the typical ousider)
I think he uses uitgewijde as an antonym to ingewijde (insider), ?uitgewijde? is not really a word that Duth people would use though, (as far as I know)

Met hooguit een gebaksvork in je hand
With at most a cake fork in your hand (as opposed to a cigarette or a joint, that's why he is the outsider)

Other than this, I agree with Eric?s remarks. Nice initiative though. I didn?t know this poem either. Thanks for posting. If you need any other assistance in translating from Dutch... anytime.

[Eric]

Comments on Peter's comments:

2. If the original is ironic, the translation should also try to find an ironic way of implying "softies" while writing "hardos".

3. "From cradle to grave" is the idea; can we then say, by analogy, "from f?tus to skeleton"? I suppose we can.

4. Glad you sorted that out, Peter. I see what it means now. The problem with "insider" versus "outsider" is that both words exist in standard English. Ditto "initiated" versus "uninitiated". But there must be a solution.

Anyway, as Peter says, it's good to see a few new poems being translated.

[peter_d]

Comments on Peter's comments:

2. If the original is ironic, the translation should also try to find an ironic way of implying "softies" while writing "hardos".

3. "From cradle to grave" is the idea; can we then say, by analogy, "from f?tus to skeleton"? I suppose we can.

2. Hardos might be good here. Unless there is a word that would resemble more the meaning of braaf. Braaf does not at all mean 'brave' in the sense of 'dapper' or courageous. It is more something like obedient in an exaggerated way. Google translate gives 6 options, among which #3?goody-goody', comes closest to what Scheepmaker must have meant in his poem. 'sullig' would be a good synonym in Dutch.

3. I think so too.

[Eric]

Listening to modern colloquial usage, I feel that "braaf" tends to mean something like "decent", "goody-goody", "a good, simple soul", "respectable", and so on. The opposite of "dissident", "rabble-rouser" and so on. But it's quite a difficult word to translate into English, giving the right nuance every time.

With "from fœtus to skeleton", the translator is wittingly creating a parallel, which anyone knowing the expression "from cradle to grave" would pick up. Even in the famous film Cabaret, Liza Minelli sang a variation - "from cradle to tomb" - at the end of the song that starts "What good is sitting alone in your room...?" As there is an abortion referred to in that film, maybe she could, except for the number of syllables, have sung "fœtus to skeleton".

Here's the Minelli song:

http://www.lyricstime.com/lisa-minelli-cabaret-lyrics.html

Now try translating that into Brugge dialect!

I had to look up "sullig". It was not even my passive, let alone active, vocabulary.

I'm waiting for 23rd August to come along, as that is the birthday of the Flemish poet Karel van de Woestijne. His poetry is very tricky to translate if you don't want to create hilarious doggerel from what was a serious mood poem. Roughly like turning Gerard Manley Hopkins into William McGonagall.

[litbirthdays]

Okay, I have been doing other things and haven't corrected the Belgian Dutch poem yet -- Thanksgiving is tomorrow, and there's the ongoing march of birthdays for which I scramble about looking for suitable notables to fete.

That being said, thank you for the cradle to grave / fetus to skeleton interpretation.

Thank you for the cake fork as opposed to joint explanation, because I was totally bewildered by a cake fork interjection.

Softies to hardos is ridiculous. Really. We must come up with something less nonsensical. This isn't jabberwocky.

I cannot think of an English/Anglo/American equivalent to Brave Hendrick. Perhaps because I never heard of Brave Hendrik before reading this poem. Who was he and what did he do? I s'pose one could say Beowulf, but even that sails over my head.

But above all, thank you for taking the time to read and make suggestions. It's really like the sound of one hand clapping in the empty forest where the tree fell, when one does a blog like this.

Oh, and the August birthday -- hopefully I will still be doing the blog and will be able to honor the gentleman accordingly. If by any chance you remember this in the first week of August 2010, perhaps you can send a reminder to the litbirthdays email - litbirthdays at yahoo dot com.

[jelle]

to clear some things out


Ik ben van den buiten

- stuiten = slices of breath (daily bread), to interpret as "i had to fight for what's mine"
- "klakke" farmer's cap "van achter" worn on the back of the head (or backwards)
- "kletsen" here means falling, sometimes with a humoristic undertone (with a smack)
- "de wagens gepint" i'm not so sure about the pints, though it's true we like us some pints :)
- "ik teer op m'n toer", maybe more like tasting the fruits the hard work delivered

[rudolfsiffer]

I?m Flemish, as was Ren? De Clercq. After reading the other quite interesting responses, allow me to help you a little further with some ?flemish? expressions.

Ik ben van den buiten

Ik kreeg van mijn ouders, / From my parents I got // OK
Van ieder mijn part, / What I am -- every part, //OK lit. from each one my part
Van mijn vader mijn schouders, / From my father my shoulders, // OK
Van moeder mijn hart. / From my mother my heart. // OK
Ik vocht om mijn stuiten / I fought for my face // ?stuiten? = slices of bread, covered with butter and jam (cheese, ham, chocolate-paste, etc) - ?I fought for my bread i.e. my rights.?
Met zuster en broer. / With sister and brother. // OK
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place // ?van den buiten? or ?van den boer? or ?van den boerebuiten? = ?from the countryside?
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Bij d'eigensten pachter, / A farmer and tenant // first translation was better: ?by my same tenant? indicates his loyalty - as ?eigen? in fact means ?own?, maybe ?by my own tenant??
Eerst koeier, dan knecht, / First herdsman, then servant, // ?herdsman? esp. someone who herds the cows in those times when there were no fences
Mijn klakke van achter, / My heels to the back // no, no !! ?klakke? = ?cap? - often worn backwards on the back of the head: ?in de nekke? = ?in the nape? as we also say - indicating independence and nonchalance - ?my cap in the nape?
Mijn hoofd immer recht, / My head facing front, // literally: ?my head always upright?
Zoo dien 'k om mijn duiten / So I earn my keep // ?dienen? = ?to serve? - ?duiten? = ?coins? - ?so I serve to gain my pay?
En teer op mijn toer. / And feast on my feed. // ?teren? or ?verteren? = ?to spend? (for ?verteren? also ?to digest? - for ?teren? also ?to live on? rather than ?to feast on?) - ?toer? = ?turn? - here I?d say: ?and spend money when it?s my turn?
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


Ik zout en ik zaaie, / I salt and I sow, // OK
Ik eg en ik ploeg, / I till and I plow, // why replace ?harrow? by ?till??
Ik mest en ik maaie, / I manure and I mow, // OK
Ik zweet en ik zwoeg, / I sweat and I toil, // OK
Ik klets in de kluiten, / I slog through the rows, // ?kletsen? is indeed Dutch for ?to chat? - in Flemish it means ?to smack? (f.i. with a whip) ?to slap? (in the face) - also ?to fall?, esp. in water, mud, silt and indeed with a humoristic undertone - You wouldn?t say "I ?kletste? from the stairs." - ?kluiten? is ?clods? as in your first translation - it also means ?coins? (in Dutch: ?duiten?)
Ik glets in de moer. / I slide in the mud. // OK
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!


En hebben de zeisens / And here are the scythes // better: ?and when the scythes?
Gezinderezind; / Shimmering; // ?have chanted ???? - the word does not exist though ?zinderen? can be found in it - here De Clercq creates an onomatopoeia - ?zinderen? is no longer in use - it?s the sound scythes make esp. when they are being whetted - ?to sizzle? ? - not ?to glimmer?! why not use ?to glitter?
De mallende meisens / The maddening maidens // OK - ?mal? = ?slightly mad? - ?mallende? is a word by De Clercq, indeed ?mad-making?
De wagens gepint; / The wagons with pints; // ?pinten - pintte - gepint? (no longer in use) = ?to decorate with flowers, ribbons, etc on festive days or occasions? - here the girls have ?pinted? the last haywagon of the harvest - it has nothing to do with a glass of beer = ?pint? - ?pintelieren? exists and means?to drink al lot of beer? = ?binge-drinking? !?
Dan zit ik te fluiten, / Then sit I and whistle, // OK
Van boven op 't voer: / On top of the hay, // good! though "?t voer = het voer" literally means ?the load?
Ik ben van den buiten, / Outside is my place
Ik ben van den boer! / I am from the farm!

This was a lot of technical information. Now, up to the poetry again!
It was my pleasure to help you.

R.Siffer

[Eric]

Thanks, Rudolf, for the detailed appraisal. After attending a literary translation workshop in Utrecht yesterday, I appreciate the various opinions and nuances that come up when translating. We even discussed doing a joint version of the prose passage we were doing - but there wasn't enough time. Even two pages of prose can generate an immense amount of discussion. As the author in question was Annelies Verbele, even dictionaries of Flemish or Zuidnederlands were mentioned. It is fascinating when British and American translators tackle authors writing in either Netherlands-Dutch or the Flemish variety of Dutch.

We should do more of these line-by-line translations here on the WLF. It would be interesting to see what people make of Nolens, van de Woestijne, Gezelle, van Ostaijen, and many other Flemish authors, both old and contemporary.

You say:



This was a lot of technical information. Now, up to the poetry again!

To do a good job, even translating only one poem as here, you very much need the technical side of things. Like the harrow that became diffuse. Glad you solved the "wagens gepint" problem, whcih none of us managed to guess. The word occurs in Swedish as "pynta" where it means to decorate, usually with various cheap things, as at Christmas with glass balls on the tree, and other "krims-krams".

I think that the majority of English-speaking translators from the Dutch language have come via the Netherlands route, so there are few who immediately pick up Flemish expressions, some of which can be nearer to German or Scandinavian, even French, and are sometimes radically different from Netherlands Dutch, or are faux amis - such as "poepen".