Translation and Intertextuality

[Mirabell]

Intertextuality, something which covers many areas of texts, including many that some people would refer to as 'context', is clearly important for translations. History, literature, science are important for interpretations and every translation is based on a (often unspoken/intuitive) interpretation, so they are just as important to a translation.

I do, however, often come across translators who, I feel, are overdoing it. They 'translate' the references, too, by exchanging the allusion for a domestic one. Say, a famous American actor for a famous German actor. I tend to recoil at that.

But on the other hand, the way a text exploits intertextuality is often closely attuned to culture and language. Does a reference to Tom Jones work in German the same way that it works in English?

My answer: footnotes, explaining the significance. But as far as I monitored discussions and actual translations so far, that issue is far from resolved.

Hmhmhm.

[nnyhav]

Footnotes are great for critical editions (including native language--the past is a foreign country), and introductions that lay out the context without forcing interpretation are helpful, but otherwise these days the Internets seem a sufficient reference resource (easier than the dictionary even for lazy readers).

[Heteronym]

I do, however, often come across translators who, I feel, are overdoing it. They 'translate' the references, too, by exchanging the allusion for a domestic one. Say, a famous American actor for a famous German actor. I tend to recoil at that.

:eek:

Tell me who's committed such a disgusting crime so I'll never read a book translated by him.

[Sybarite]

:eek:

Tell me who's committed such a disgusting crime so I'll never read a book translated by him.

That would really annoy me too. It would be as crass as translating, say, 'Herr X' to 'Mr X' from German to English.

Personally, I'd think that a footnote could explain such cultural differences easily enough.

[Jayaprakash]

I believe there was an example mentioned on these forums recently, a translation of a French work where a reference to a classic of French literature was replaced with a reference to Dickens.

[Stewart]

I believe there was an example mentioned on these forums recently, a translation of a French work where a reference to a classic of French literature was replaced with a reference to Dickens.
Yes, it's on this thread: Interesting Translation Issue (http://www.worldliteratureforum.com/forum/literary-translation/3395-interesting-translation-issue.html).

[Jayaprakash]

Cripes. No less than a translation of Proust.

re: footnotes. I'm all for them.

[Mirabell]

Yes, it's on this thread: Interesting Translation Issue (http://www.worldliteratureforum.com/forum/literary-translation/3395-interesting-translation-issue.html).

dammit. sorry.

[Eric]

Intertextuality is a nice word, but let's define it:

Intertextuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertextuality)

I tend to use the term to mean the insertion of passages from other books, or allusions and references to other books (or texts). Is that what Mirabell is driving at?

When translating, especially a postmodernist novel, I would not "translate" place names, etc. That can be done for crime novels where the place could be Gloucester or Nizhny Novgorod, because it's the murder that counts. But if a non-crime novel is set in a specific country or city, with the whole mesh of cultural references, you can't change the setting without changing the novel.

Alluding to another book, such as to the Odyssey in Ulysses is intertextuality, but I'm not sure that re-setting a Simenon novel in Glasgow instead of Li?ge constitutes intertextuality, just rather bold and radical translation.

Jayaprakash is right, this discussion has been touched on before. I will say what I said then, that the substitution of Dickens in that instance for Proust, is not something I would do as a translator. Proust is Proust, and well enough known to be allowed to keep his references. "Is Proust Dickensian?" could be the title of one of those inconclusive undergrad essays.

[Amir]

I am going to do my thesis of MA of Translation Studies in Translation of Intertextual expression of English novels into Persian . I am searching for good post modern English novels which translated into Persian . I will be grateful if someone help me in finding my sources.

[gonfler]

They say Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose is brimming with intertextuality.

I should find myself a copy. :)

[Eric]

Any more thoughts on the definition and boundaries of intertextuality? Quoting, borrowing, alluding?

Does a retelling of the original story, as in the Bible or Homer (e.g. Steinbeck's "East of Eden", Joyce's "Ulysses", or Thomas Mann's Joseph's books) count as full-blooded intertextuality?

As I mentioned earlier, I thought intertextuality was more when you quote or allude in a bigger text that also contains new material.

[Owen]

I'm not totally against "translating" cultural references, depending on the intention of the text. On the other hand, I feel less and less inclined to consider doing so since, as has been noted, anyone who cares can look it up on the web. And even when the text is purely meant to entertain, which is when I would consider swapping a reference out for a more universal one, it's also usually just as easy to add a few words of explanation. It's definitely dangerous business though, and must be done with much fear and trembling. Where else are readers going to learn about these things if not from the books that are referencing them?

[Eric]

Intertextuality can, at its worst, be merely an excuse for plagiarism: you write extended quotes and "forget" to acknowledge them.

But in the novel I'm translating right now - and that is what made me think about the subject again today - there is a witty playing with the names of artists and critics and pastiches involving their work. This type of intertextuality is, surely, added value because of the element of humour mixed in with the allusion.

If you just nick things for your own glory, that doesn't quite polish your halo as a writer in the same way.

In this novel I'm translating there is no real need for a change of names and locations because they are international for the most: Beuys, Deleuze, Derrida, Barthes, Kundera, Murdoch (Iris, not Rupert), Woolf, Fowles, and so on.

I think that in a thriller or crime novel, where the blood and thunder is far more important to whether the novel is set in Ystad, Helsinki, or Los Angeles, you can take liberties, as the reader just wants to read about sadistic murders and enjoy the puzzle aspect of detection. But in general non-crime novels, I would be loath to remove couleur locale.