Thomas Mann: Royal Highness

[Colette Jones]

I think there are a few of us reading this together, comprising a group read. I hope so. I have read one chapter (The Constriction) and quite like it so far. I have the Minerva copy from 1997.

It says:
Translated from the German by A. Cecil Curtis
Fully revised by Constance McNab

What is meant by revised in this context?

[Eric]

What it probably means, Colette, is that the publishing house is doing it on the cheap. It doesn't want to spend the money on a new translation, but may want to circumvent various copyright clauses. So if the text is a bit new, but they don't have to pay the translator for all the words, they will save money.

Various things can be revised, but what may happen is that some parts, regarded as too old-fashioned, are updated. Even when Penguin or Minerva do it, there is a whiff of cost-cutting.

I believe that the original "A. Cecil Curtis" could in fact have been a woman. I've not discovered what the "A" stands for, but this was in the days when they tried to turn women into men, because this would sell books better. She also translated from Danish, but it looks as if she could have taken her husband's double-barrelled name. This is all speculation, as Google reveals virtually nothing. But there's something funny going on, when the translator appears to have no biography on Google.

Constance McNab seems equally hard to pin down when Googling. Whether these are all pseudonyms I cannot tell. This latter name is associated with the military historian Liddell Hart.

But everything is vague.

[Colette Jones]

Interesting, Eric. I quite like the idea that the translator is a woman. A quick check on amazon tells me she also translated books by Arthur Emanuel Christensen (Danish?). No wiki help for him either!

This edition has a postscript by Constance McNab which is not dated and is biographical in nature rather than discussing what she did to "revise" the book. There are not any footnotes on the pages, which I am glad of, but they could have given clues as to what she revised.

Further searches show that Constance McNab was also a translator, e.g. Michelangelo [by] Rolf Schott. So did she revise the translation, I wonder!

[Colette Jones]

Some lost posts, so a summary from memory of who is planning to join in:

Mirabell, Colette Jones, Beth, Lizzy Siddal, Sybarite.

Mirabell offered a schedule which started with Prelude, Chapter One and Chapter Two starting from tomorrow 29th December until 2nd January. I do not remember the rest but I am sure Mirabell will.

[titania7]

Colette,
Add me to the list of those participating in the Royal Highness group read. Mirabell and I have already been in touch about it, and, being quite a devotee of Mann's work already, I simply can't wait!

Holiday best,
Titania

[Colette Jones]

Excellent. If you had replied before I apologize for missing you out. I am still getting used to who's who around here as I haven't read enough of the threads to be able to put personality to names. In hindsight, I think it was you and not Sybarite. ?

[Sybarite]

I've just started this morning ? bang on Mirabell's schedule! :)

I remember that we're looking at a week for the first two chapters, but how are we actually going to organise discussion?

[Colette Jones]

I've just started this morning ? bang on Mirabell's schedule! :)

I remember that we're looking at a week for the first two chapters, but how are we actually going to organise discussion?
Good question! I'll just throw out a general comment while we're thinking about that. I enjoyed the book, and thought that the first chapter (The Constriction - what a title!) set the tone perfectly.

[Sybarite]

After this evening, I won't be around until late Friday, so please don't take my absence from the start of this discussion as an indication that I'm not participating. I've already read the first part, am enjoying it thus far and will attempt to keep some vaguely coherent thoughts in mind until I get back.

[LizzySiddal]

I will be lagging behind - preparing for my face-to-face book group on the 12th and the Ammaniti event on the 14th. But, I promise, I'll make up for lost time after that.

Mirabell, would you please republish the reading schedule. Thanks.

[Stewart]

Mirabell, would you please republish the reading schedule. Thanks.
He said he wouldn't be back until next year, I think. But I did find the dates in Google's cache:





Mo.29th-Fr.2nd: Prologue + Chapter1 + chapter 2 (39 pages)
Sa3rd-We7th: Chapter3 + Chapter 4 (73 pages)
Th8th-Mo12th: Chapter5 + Chapter 6 (61 pages)
Tu13th-Sa17th: Chapter 7 (103 pages)
Su18th-Th22nd: Chapter 8+9 (76 pages)

[Sybarite]

Many thanks for that, Stewart ? and Mirabell.

[Beth]

Schlosshing around a bit this morning and found this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/arts/design/01abroad.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th)discussion of whether to incorporate the Schloss design into a Berlin construction project. It seems even the architecture of Klaus Heinrich's birth sets him up for Constriction.

[Colette Jones]

In chapter one, the Grand Duke states:

"Nobody is to blame, it is a misfortune; but misfortunes for which nobody is to blame are the most terrible of misfortunes, and the sight of their Sovereign ought to awaken in his people other feelings than those of sympathy."

At the birth of his son, his foremost thoughts are those of show. Is this the real constriction which Klaus Heinrich is born into?

[Beth]

I think it is, CJ, (to carry that constricting theme a bit further). The whole idea of an imperial line, a prescribed birthplace, the Grand Duke's fury with his advisors and with Grand Duchess Dorothea's gyn?cologists. His comment ''But it's unheard of! I cannot understand it! People talk nowadays about heredity,'' speaks to the heart of imperialist thinking? Or is that too broad an interpretation?

[Jayaprakash]

Aha!

I shall join in shortly. Can't promise to keep to any strict schedule though.

[Colette Jones]

I think it is, CJ, (to carry that constricting theme a bit further). The whole idea of an imperial line, a prescribed birthplace, the Grand Duke's fury with his advisors and with Grand Duchess Dorothea's gyn?cologists. His comment ''But it's unheard of! I cannot understand it! People talk nowadays about heredity,'' speaks to the heart of imperialist thinking? Or is that too broad an interpretation?I'd forgotten that exchange. He seemed worried about whether he is to be blamed at that point, and to have no one to blame was considered worse. I guess that shows he was thinking about his son more than himself so that's something.

At the risk of getting ahead of the first couple chapters, inheritance seems to be a theme to watch. Klaus Heinrich has inherited lack of choice (a constriction).

[Colette Jones]

Aha!

I shall join in shortly. Can't promise to keep to any strict schedule though.
Great news!

[Sybarite]

First, apologies in advance if I ramble a little ? I'm battling a heavy cold, which seems to be my punishment for enjoying a fabulous new year in Amsterdam.

However, on the basis of the first couple of chapters, I think that the "constriction" could be any number of things:

? a symbol of the constrictive nature of being born into a royal family, where duty is placed above all else ? and certainly all manner of personal pleasure;

? a symbol of the constrictions of the system of monarchy that exists in the book;

? a symbol of the state of the country in economic and industrial terms (which limits the spending and lifestyle of the ducal family).

The detailed description of the state of the country shows it effectively dying beneath the burdens of being essentially pre-industrial and also (in tandem) of having a very old-fashioned monarchical system. Everything is stagnating (the development of the country has been constricted, if you will).

Other things to note: Mann's plea for tolerance ? the local GP is pointedly Jewish and the conversation that he has with the king specifically makes a case for equality etc. Mann himself was very much a friend of Jewish people and a sympathiser with them culturally. Perhaps he also he is drawing the idea that Klaus Heinrich is, like the doctor, an outsider? Perhaps that will become clearer later. There is also an early, fleeting reference to modernity ? is this an appeal for such? For a more modern monarchy etc?

The novel was first published a century ago this year, at a time when Mann himself was still very much a monarchist. Side note ? the prince's name: 'Klaus' was the name of Mann's three-year-old son and 'Heinrich' was his brother, who hated this novel. The two rowed about it to a great extent ? it was one aspect in a split between the pair that took a very long time to heal.

[Colette Jones]

...
However, on the basis of the first couple of chapters, I think that the "constriction" could be any number of things:

• a symbol of the constrictive nature of being born into a royal family, where duty is placed above all else – and certainly all manner of personal pleasure;

• a symbol of the constrictions of the system of monarchy that exists in the book;

• a symbol of the state of the country in economic and industrial terms (which limits the spending and lifestyle of the ducal family).
...or possibly just a constriction caused by amniotic threads? :)

Other things to note: Mann's plea for tolerance – the local GP is pointedly Jewish and the conversation that he has with the king specifically makes a case for equality etc. Mann himself was very much a friend of Jewish people and a sympathiser with them culturally. Perhaps he also he is drawing the idea that Klaus Heinrich is, like the doctor, an outsider? Perhaps that will become clearer later. There is also an early, fleeting reference to modernity – is this an appeal for such? For a more modern monarchy etc?

The novel was first published a century ago this year...I certainly noticed the Jewish references but thought it was published too early for that to be relevant. ?? It felt oddly prescient.

[Colette Jones]

The detailed description of the state of the country shows it effectively dying beneath the burdens of being essentially pre-industrial and also (in tandem) of having a very old-fashioned monarchical system. Everything is stagnating (the development of the country has been constricted, if you will).
Does this equate to Germany at the time? In my ignorance of world history, I couldn't tell whether Mann was referring to Germany as "the country" or not.

... and 'Heinrich' was his brother, who hated this novel. The two rowed about it to a great extent – it was one aspect in a split between the pair that took a very long time to heal.
Interesting... do you know what Heinrich's problem with it was? Is there an online reference somewhere?

[Sybarite]

Does this equate to Germany at the time? In my ignorance of world history, I couldn't tell whether Mann was referring to Germany as "the country" or not.

My suspicion is that he was thinking along rather more general terms of the Germanic countries: it probably fits more easily as an analysis of the state of Austro-Hungary at the time. The decay of that was later to be one of the weaknesses in the alliance of Austro-Hungary and Germany in WWI. Indeed, perhaps he was making a call for Austro-Hungary to modernise, to industrialise more? Germany – ruled at the time effectively by Prussia – was far more advanced in terms of industrialisation: that was a vital part of the development of the dreadnought fleet that so upset Britain.

I haven't seen anything obvious about imperialism in the first two chapters, but it was obviously at the heart of the causes of WWI – all the Great Powers racing for colonies etc. Germany was way behind in that because, under Bismarck, Prussia had had no interest in outside colonies. Indeed, Bismarck even tried to give one of their very few colonies away, as a present to British prime minister Gladstone. Imperialist ambition was at the heart of major changes to German/Prussian foreign policy when Bismarck was effectively sacked from his position as Chancellor in 1890 by the new Kaiser, Wilhelm II. Unlike Wilhelm I, the new Kaiser was ambitious for colonies and wanted to join the imperial race.

Another thing that the issue raises – although I'm not sure that this was remotely in Mann's mind when writing – is the question of an absolutely (or pretty much) monarchy requiring a very talented individual to be on the throne. It happened in Prussia three times – under the Great Elector (Margrave Frederick William of Brandenburg), Frederick William (the 'Soldier King', who was an arse as a father, but was a brilliant administrator) and then his son, Frederick III – Frederick the Great. If you look at both of Prussia's most troubled periods, during the Thirty Years War and the Napoleonic era, ineffective and nervous rulers at the time opted for disastrous policies of neutrality, which saw the state seriously damaged (in the former, Brandenburg Prussia was appallingly badly affected, possibly worse than anywhere else; in the 19th century, when there was a rise in German 'Volk' culture, there was a desire to collect folk tales etc from all parts of the empire. But in Prussia, there was almost nothing from before the Thirty years War: so much had been eradicated and whole populations had fled or been destroyed.

But the point is that, if you have a monarch with a great deal of power, he has to be special if the country is not to decay – to be constricted in one way or another.


Interesting... do you know what Heinrich's problem with it was? Is there an online reference somewhere?

Heinrich didn't see monarchy as a desired or reformable system of government, while Thomas did. Until after WWI, Thomas was very much a conservative and supporter of Kaiser Wilhelm II, while his brother was already something of a political radical. His political development leftwards didn't start until later – arguably the early 1920s when he started vocally supporting (and garnering support for) parliamentary democracy in the form of the Weimar Republic. My knowledge is largely from a collection of the brothers' letters and Anthony Heilbut's biography of Thomas.

[Colette Jones]

My knowledge is largely from a collection of the brothers' letters and Anthony Heilbut's biography of Thomas.
Your knowledge is considerable! Thanks...

[Sybarite]

Your knowledge is considerable! Thanks...

My pleasure! :)

My long-term interest in Prussian history, which provides a good background for this, I think/hope, was also part of the reason that I 'got into' Thomas Mann in the first place, and he has been one of my personal 'household gods' since I first read any of his work.

[Beth]

But the point is that, if you have a monarch with a great deal of power, he has to be special if the country is not to decay – to be constricted in one way or another.

...which hints at the gipsy woman's prophecy and the delight Herr von Knobelsdorff experiences upon Klaus Heinrich's birth. I realized the symbolism of the constriction, while knowing little of the complete picture as Sybarite has explained. Even allowing for a lack of background knowledge, the symbolism has an almost, er, heavy handed approach and is rather obvious. I'm thinking that the novel is referred to as a fairy tale of sorts?

I thought the next chapter, The Country, lovely and timeless:


The people loved their woods...And yet the forest had been sinned against, outraged for ages and ages. The Grand Ducal Department of Woods and Forests deserved all the reproaches that were laid against it. That Department had not political insight enough to see that the wood must be maintained and kept as inalienable common property, if it was to be useful not only to the present generation, but also to those to come; and that it would surely avenge itself if it were exploited recklessly and short-sightedly, without regard to the future, for the benefit of the present.

[Sybarite]

...which hints at the gipsy woman's prophecy and the delight Herr von Knobelsdorff experiences upon Klaus Heinrich's birth...

Indeed. Although there's also the whole idea of royalty being 'special' in general: of being different from the rest of the people, apart. At it's most simplistic, Mann could be reminding us that that is nonsense and that royalty are human like the rest of 'us' – but the Grand Duke's attitude is certainly one of believing his own propaganda, if you will. Therefore, someone has to be to blame for the hand – yet his first son is not strong: not perfect in terms of health. Perhaps Mann is even hinting here at the problems of breeding from such a very small – almost incestuous – pool?


... I realized the symbolism of the constriction, while knowing little of the complete picture as Sybarite has explained. Even allowing for a lack of background knowledge, the symbolism has an almost, er, heavy handed approach and is rather obvious. I'm thinking that the novel is referred to as a fairy tale of sorts?

I think that the novel has been referred to in such a fashion, yes. You can see elements of that – indeed, mann makes specific reference to fairy tales (think it's a little later so won't go into detail here). There's also, in general, a sense that this very much a Mittel Europa romance.


I thought the next chapter, The Country, lovely and timeless:

The detail in it delightful. And, as with the rest of what I've read thus far, it's very gentle and quite soothing.

A couple of additional points: according to Anthony Heilbut (Mann's biographer, who I mentioned earlier), Kaiser Wilhelm II had a similarly deformed left hand. And such a deformity (together with left-handedness) was considered by some to indicate homosexuality and/or impotence.

[Beth]

But Kaiser Wilhelm would have been flattered?

[Sybarite]

But Kaiser Wilhelm would have been flattered?

Not with any implied suggestion of homosexuality or impotence, but presumably with any suggestion that he was a sort of great hope of the Hohenzollerns.

[Colette Jones]

Is it okay to talk about chapters 3 and 4 yet?

[Sybarite]

Is it okay to talk about chapters 3 and 4 yet?

I assume so.


Sa3rd-We7th: Chapter3 + Chapter 4 (73 pages)

[LizzySiddal]

Quick post to say that I shall start reading in earnest later today. Should be joining in at some point over the weekend.

[Sybarite]

A few quick thoughts.

As the next two chapters develop, we increasingly see Klaus Heinrich's world being filled out. There is a sense of decay about the ducal family – in some ways, the malformed hand and the weakness of Albrecht also hints at this. The castles are decaying – formal and state occasions are held in tatty environments. There is an extraordinary scene in the third chapter, where Klaus Heinrich stands alone in one of the formal chambers, the Silver Room, and sees the decay and tries to understand what is expected of him.

We see an idea about the way in which people excuse royalty and make things easier for them – the teachers who create tactics so that the prince cannot be seen to have answered anything incorrectly, for instance. The childhood and youth of Klaus Heinrich is also artificial and stultifying. We see his increasing loneliness – and also that of his brother.

There are ideas put forward about the monarchy's role – that it's effectively to be a live fairy tale for the people, to enjoy and make them happy. Thus an idea of pretty much pointless lives.

And indeed, Mann gives a brief but very cutting portrait of Klaus Heinrich's mother: cold and obsessed with her own beauty, she shows her children no affection – indeed, she has no real interest in them at all – only putting on a show of being a loving mother when there are others to watch. It is a dysfunctional family, playing their empty parts to fulfill a ceremonial role and provide entertainment and, to an extent at least, an 'example' to the people (see the Windsors to this day). That it creates for them all an emotionally frigid life is of no importance when considered against the idea of duty and of their "calling". Perhaps the need or desire to have such a family as the figureheads at the top of the country is a sign of the country's immaturity too?

The shoemaker incident when Klaus Heinrich is still a child shows the divide between the 'ordinary' people and the monarchy, with the bitchy and bullying "lackeys" (who seem to be the ones who reveal snobbishness by virtue of their connection to the monarchy) effectively acting as a barrier between the two groups. Hinnerke is the first real encounter that Klaus Heinrich and his sister have with anyone of the ordinary people and it has a big impact on him. Or does it? Will it be remembered later? What does suddenly become clear for Klaus Heinrich is that the people see him as different – and name their own children after him (as Hinnerke himself had).

The teacher ?berlein is an interesting figure. Fiercely ambitious, from outside aristocracy, he teaches Klaus Heinrich an idea of his duty – almost a sense of idolatry of the role and idea of monarchy. His education is uninspired and there is a sense of Klaus Heinrich being constricted (like the hand, again) in his own personal development. He never rebels, just goes along with what he's told and shows little real character. But the incident at the ball, where he allows himself to get 'carried away' is indicative again of the divide between the people and the monarchy – but it also hints at a side of the relationship that we've not seen before: that there are those who also enjoy seeing members of the ducal family make fools of themselves etc.

Later, the rather delicate way in which Mann explains that it's been carefully arranged for Klaus Heinrich to lose his virginity is delightful and very quietly funny. But again, it's a case of everything being arranged for Klaus Heinrich. He has – or takes – no real control over his own life. He's a puppet of tradition and (apparently) the desire of the people for a fairy tale (how times have changed – now it's a soap opera, in the UK at least).

All in all (thus far): a beautifully detailed description of a monarchy that is fading and decaying, but doesn't realise it. With a court and a people that apparently don't realise it either, and a sense that both monarchy and country need to modernise for the sake of the future. Deceptively light and deceptively simple.

[Beth]

Yet, at some point during this deceptively simple section, I decided to keep on reading because of what's hinted...

My favorite, so much so that it tingles, theme in literature is that of personal evolution and change from one ''state'' into another, with all of the emotional pain and hardship which ensues. Isn't it in this section where the smelly rose bush is introduced very cursorily? This, and the excursion Klaus Heinrich and Ditlinde make which introduces them to the shoemaker, felt to me like a clue that the real story hadn't truly begun.

I've thought over this past week about the seeming contradiction between Mann's subtle flattery of Kaiser Wilhelm in this novel, while he at the same time is exposing the weaknesses of the Imperial rule. What missing piece am I not getting? Need to read more about Kaiser Wilhelm.

[LizzySiddal]

I'm catching up slowly but surely.

A quick word about Mann's writing techniques. He makes extensive use of the leitmotif in relation to his characters. Klaus Heinrich's hand, Albrecht's skull-like face. He often extends the leitmotiv to their names. It is a hint of the role the character plays. So:

Grimmburg = fierce castle
von Buehl zu Buehl = from bump to bump
Ueberbein = ganglion, a centre of intellectual activity
Spoelmann = (low German, Dutch) he who rinses

[Beth]

Thanks, Lizzy, those are helpful to someone who has no knowledge of German. I had attached what I thought might be an approximation of the Grimmburg motif by thinking of it as ''Grimburgh'' or gloomy village. A little Scots-German mangling!

Was anyone else livened up at the first mention of the rose bush legend?

[Colette Jones]

A quick word about Mann's writing techniques. He makes extensive use of the leitmotif in relation to his characters. Klaus Heinrich's hand, Albrecht's skull-like face. He often extends the leitmotiv to their names.
I had noted oft-repeated phrases describing something the characters do habitually:

Albrecht - lower lip sucked gently against the upper one

Klaus Heinrich - hiding left hand behind his back

Sammet - ends all sentences with "Yes"

Imma - pursing her lips and turning her head from side to side
--

And some which are descriptive of a look:

Mr Spoelman - thin hands half protected by soft cuffs

Countess - blush on one side of the face, pale on the other
---

Do these relate to "leitmotif"? Sorry, complete ignorance again!

[Colette Jones]

The shoemaker incident when Klaus Heinrich is still a child shows the divide between the 'ordinary' people and the monarchy, with the bitchy and bullying "lackeys" (who seem to be the ones who reveal snobbishness by virtue of their connection to the monarchy) effectively acting as a barrier between the two groups. Hinnerke is the first real encounter that Klaus Heinrich and his sister have with anyone of the ordinary people and it has a big impact on him. Or does it? Will it be remembered later? What does suddenly become clear for Klaus Heinrich is that the people see him as different ? and name their own children after him (as Hinnerke himself had).
The shoemaker incident comes back later in the book when Klaus Heinrich tells someone what the lackeys are like. He relates second hand experience as if he knows it first hand, and possibly doesn't even remember how he learned it, not unlike how prejudice can be handed down from parent to child.

Most of Klaus Heinrich's experience is unreal, and I think that's what these two chapters (Hinnerke the Shoemaker and Doctor Uberbein) are set to portray.

[Colette Jones]

Was anyone else livened up at the first mention of the rose bush legend?Yes, I think I was - I remember feeling it was going to be significant. Can you point out roughly where it is? I struggle to find things later if I didn't make a note of it.

[Sybarite]

The rose bush is certainly one of those elements that made me think that this is a fairy tale.

It does seem (at present – I'm about half way through) that Mann's reading of the monarchy as an institution is that the people want it to be like a fairy tale. I'm finding that whole aspect really interesting – particularly when then considering the House of Windsor. What is the purpose of a monarchy? In the novel, as Albrecht's speech at the siblings' meeting over tea shows, while he's supposed to be the ruler of the county, he isn't really. And Klaus Heinrich comes to experience it as a performance: something that almost exclsively very ceremonial – and really very shallow.

[Beth]

Can you point out roughly where it is? I struggle to find things later if I didn't make a note of it.
Same here, and I can't find the first mention, but it's early, maybe in the school chapter?

[LizzySiddal]

How is everyone getting on? I was very relieved to finish this last night - I found it excruciatingly dull on the whole. I know now why it wasn't included on my uni-Thomas-Mann syllabus and for those whose first Mann this was, and who might be put off by it, I'd recommend Buddenbrooks, which is everything that this isn't. Or if you want something shorter, Death In Venice, which I'm going to read in February. I need a faith restorer.

Sybarite - could you provide details of the letters between Thomas and Heinrich that you were reading?

[Colette Jones]

How is everyone getting on? I was very relieved to finish this last night - I found it excruciatingly dull on the whole. I know now why it wasn't included on my uni-Thomas-Mann syllabus and for those whose first Mann this was, and who might be put off by it, I'd recommend Buddenbrooks, which is everything that this isn't. Or if you want something shorter, Death In Venice, which I'm going to read in February. I need a faith restorer.
It was my first Thomas Mann and I really enjoyed it so it sounds like I'm in for a real treat with his others! I have Death in Venice but it is translated by H.T. Lowe-Porter who reportedly changed things around that she didn't like. I think I'd prefer to read a different translation! Which do you have, Lizzy?

On to the next chapter, Albrecht II, where the Spoelmanns enter the story. Mr Spoelmann has inherited his wealth so cannot be "blamed" (page 133 in my edition). It is his father who is the real Leviathan and Croesus (I had to look these up on wikipedia, and I'm not sure I understand why Spoelman is referred to as a Leviathan (sea monster?). Croesus makes sense because he is rich.

[LizzySiddal]

It was my first Thomas Mann and I really enjoyed it so it sounds like I'm in for a real treat with his others! I have Death in Venice but it is translated by H.T. Lowe-Porter who reportedly changed things around that she didn't like. I think I'd prefer to read a different translation! Which do you have, Lizzy?

On to the next chapter, Albrecht II, where the Spoelmanns enter the story. Mr Spoelmann has inherited his wealth so cannot be "blamed" (page 133 in my edition). It is his father who is the real Leviathan and Croesus (I had to look these up on wikipedia, and I'm not sure I understand why Spoelman is referred to as a Leviathan (sea monster?). Croesus makes sense because he is rich.

I always thought leviathan = crocodile. Huge jaws, made money by eating up others?

I also have the Lowe-Porter translation of Death in Venice. I didn't know that about it. Neither do I have the original German text to hand. I shall have to do some digging.

[Colette Jones]

I always thought leviathan = crocodile. Huge jaws, made money by eating up others?
Oh, that would make sense.

I also have the Lowe-Porter translation of Death in Venice. I didn't know that about it. Neither do I have the original German text to hand. I shall have to do some digging.Someone here wrote that (about Lowe-Porter) on this thread but it was during the days which posts were lost. I can't remember who said it.

[Sybarite]

Hi everyone,

It was me who mentioned that Lowe-Porter had apparently changed and/or altered parts of Death in Venice because she didn't like them ? it was mentioned in a copy of the book that I've got, in the introduction by the translator ? I'm at work now, so I'll check the name later.

As to the letters, I'll look that stuff up again when I have the chance. I'm afraid I've been out of touch for a few days, and will be pretty busy for the rest of this week.

[Colette Jones]

Here's a line (p.134 in my book) which really made me laugh:

<speaking of Spoelman's daughter>
"You may well say so, Ditlinde, and she's clever, so I've heard; she studies like a man, algebra, and highbrow subjects of the sort."

I have never heard of algebra being classed as highbrow. Would it have been considered so at the time, or is Mann having a giggle too?

[Sybarite]

Here's a line (p.134 in my book) which really made me laugh:

<speaking of Spoelman's daughter>
"You may well say so, Ditlinde, and she's clever, so I've heard; she studies like a man, algebra, and highbrow subjects of the sort."

I have never heard of algebra being classed as highbrow. Would it have been considered so at the time, or is Mann having a giggle too?

The book was published in 1909 and so, I suppose, many people would have thought it rather odd ("highbrow", perhaps) for a woman to be studying such an 'unfeminine' subject). I think, though, that Mann is also showing us, again, how behind-the-times the monarchy in his book is ? possibly even the whole country.

[Beth]

What do you think Mann was trying to say by creating Imma as an American? It almost seemed that he might be having a bit of fun in portraying her as something akin to a hog on ice. I think for the purpose of Klaus Heinrich's expansion, wouldn't any good woman (who tripped Klaus' trigger) have suited the purpose? Did Mann view Americans positively? Or is this reading too much into the text...

[Colette Jones]

What do you think Mann was trying to say by creating Imma as an American? It almost seemed that he might be having a bit of fun in portraying her as something akin to a hog on ice. I think for the purpose of Klaus Heinrich's expansion, wouldn't any good woman (who tripped Klaus' trigger) have suited the purpose? Did Mann view Americans positively? Or is this reading too much into the text...
I think there was a reason and it had to do with racism. She and her father left the US because they were treatly badly because they had Indian blood (generationally quint, quad, tre). It was okay in Germany - they were not shunned.

I think I wrote earlier that I thought inheritance was a major theme in this book. Imma and Klaus Heinrich had that in common - KH inherited his title; Imma and her father inherited their wealth. There was nothing they could do about it. Imma inherited her Indian blood. When Imma notices KH's left hand (which is remarkedly late given the amount of time they have spent together!) she asks "Were you born like that?" She seems to like him better following this and softens a bit - he is human after all, with this imperfection. He then lets down his guard completely, he is so relieved to not have to hide it.

[Sybarite]

I think it's also to do with the US representing the 'new world' ? modernity ? as opposed to 'old, old-fashioned Europe'.

[Colette Jones]

I think it's also to do with the US representing the 'new world' – modernity – as opposed to 'old, old-fashioned Europe'.
Yes, but along with that, old fashioned prejudice against them, as they were not "pure". Ironic that this was an issue in the US but not Germany, isn't it?

Back to the repetitive descriptions of the characters a moment: the countess, with her blush on one side of the face, pale on the other - this seems fairly obviously to describe her personality, sometimes completely sensible, sometimes completely confused, even perhaps schizophrenic.

What of Imma though: pursing her lips and moving her head from side to side. Cynical? Contrary? Negative?

And Albrecht: much is made of him extending his hand without removing his arm from his side.

[Sybarite]

At this stage (and I apologise again for being so slow with this book, because I'm really rather busy this month), the only reference that I have seen to issues of race etc is early on, when the then Grand Duke asks Sammat about prejudice and whether it holds him back.

I haven't seen anything, at this juncture, to suggest that there is an attitude toward the Spoelmans of anything other than possible class-based snobbery and, in the case of Ditlinde's opinions of Imma, very dated attitudes toward what is and is not suitable for a woman to do.

I think that there is a danger of trying to read too much into the book ? in essence, I think that Mann was writing a light romance, that also acts as a call for an old-fashioned society to modernise: to rejuvenate or be reborn, in effect. He presents a portrait of a stagnating country and then seems to be showing us what modernity and industry can do. The rose is symbolic ? and I very much expect that, when (presumably) Klaus Heinrich learns that modernity is good and change necessary for growth, the rose will come back to life and will produce it's real perfume. That is very much in keeping with the fairy tale sense of the story.

[Colette Jones]

At this stage (and I apologise again for being so slow with this book, because I'm really rather busy this month), the only reference that I have seen to issues of race etc is early on, when the then Grand Duke asks Sammat about prejudice and whether it holds him back.

I haven't seen anything, at this juncture, to suggest that there is an attitude toward the Spoelmans of anything other than possible class-based snobbery and, in the case of Ditlinde's opinions of Imma, very dated attitudes toward what is and is not suitable for a woman to do.

The racism is definitely and bluntly described - you must not be there yet, sorry!

[Colette Jones]

I made a note regarding p. 298 (end of chapter 8): Klaus did not mourn for Uberbein.

Few pitied him, nobody mourned for him - with one exception, the Chief Surgeon of the Dorothea Children's Hospital, Uberbein's only congenial friend, and perhaps a fair lady with whom he had played a game of cards once in a while. But Klaus Heinrich always honoured the memory of his unfortunate tutor.
Was KH unable to mourn or just not inclined to?

[Beth]

Oh, I think Klaus is a warm blooded character, Colette. Maybe his regard for Uberbein as the chief tutor of his youth gets watered down by the subsequent years. What I found compelling about this little fable is the transformation of Klaus into a real leader. Amid the fluff of the tale, I think Mann placed the kernel of a beautiful story, that of genuine friendship which brings grace and dignity into the kingdom.

[Colette Jones]

What I found compelling about this little fable is the transformation of Klaus into a real leader...
Yes, and it is also a tranformation into a real person.

Chapter 6 opens a description of Klaus Heinrich's day to day life, and the third paragraph begins:

There was no workaday element about his life and nothing was quite real; it consisted wholly of a succession of exceptional moments.
KH seemed quite satisfied living in this way until he realized that Imma did not have any respect for that sort of person or life.

He eventually opens up to Imma and she sees him as a real person (symbolised by her noticing he had a problematic arm) and not just a performer.