Language quirks

[hdw]

I couldn't think what to call this thread. I have a pedantic interest in the way words are used, and in their etymologies, and I was struck by a comment made by Kira Cochrane in the G2 section of today's "Guardian" where she referred to Dr. Katharine Rake, the director of the Fawcett Society, as quiet and "avuncular".

The Fawcett Society campaigns for women's rights, and its director could well qualify as Britain's leading feminist, so it seems ironic to describe her as being like a maternal uncle (avunculus) in ancient Rome: which is the derivation of "avuncular". Does anyone know how maternal uncles, as distinct from paternal ones, got their reputation for being good with the young - and what's the Latin for "aunt" anyway? I couldn't find a translation on an online English-Latin dictionary.

Harry

[Clarissa]

Du latin amita « tante », qui a donné ante puis t'ante

I tried it via the French 'tante' (incidentally Tante in German) and found the above.

I saw that article about Dr. Rake and found the word 'avuncular' strange to describe a woman of her standing. Or any woman, for that matter. 'Avuncular' has for me the connotation of a kind, round bellied, Port drinking character out of Dickens, a Mr. Pickwick for example.

[beelzebubbles]

I found this explanation in wikipedia.

Avunculism or avuncularism or the avunculate is a custom in some societies where the mother's brothers are very important in inheritance or in children's upbringing.
The term avunculate is a technical term used in kinship anthropology to describe the relationship between someone and his/her maternal uncle, or, on the other side, between the person and his/her uterine (sororal) nephew or niece.
The term "avunculate" comes from the Latin word "Avunculus", which is a kinship term used to describe the brother of the mother, in opposition to the brother of the father "Patruus". In the societies where maternal filiation is strongly represented, the role of a father could be taken over by a maternal uncle, who would become a "social father" of his sister's children.
The first surviving written account of avunculate customs occurs in the works of Tacitus (Germania, VIII, 18-20).
"Avunculate. The special relationship existing in some societies between a maternal uncle and his sister's son; maternal uncles regarded as a collective body. 1920 R. H. LOWIE Prim. Soc. v. 81 Ethnologists describe under the heading of avunculate the customs regulating in an altogether special way the relations of a nephew to his maternal uncle. Ibid. vii. 171 The Omaha are patrilineal now, but their having the avunculate proves that they once traced descent through the mother, for on no other hypothesis can such a usage be explained. .. " [1] The notion of "avunculate" does not only pertain to the line of descent (mostly rare), but can also describe an expression of matrimonial alliance. The marriage of a man with the daughter of his sister is also called "avunculate" marriage. The term "avunculate" applies to what ties the brother of the mother and the son/daughter of the sister, and it also can be used to describe the relationship between a paternal uncle and a child of his brother [2].
At avunculate time the maternal family is already headed by a man, a father or a brother of the woman given into another's family or clan. The matrilocal spousal residence is replaced with patrilocal one, the man does not move any more into the house of his wife, but just the opposite, in marriage he takes her into his house. At the same time a wife and her children retain their affiliation with the former maternal family and clan. In such system the factual father of the child, instead of the blood father, is the uncle on the maternal side. And while a mother remains in the husband's house, her children (sons) "return home". The blood father and his relatives are obligated to turn the child over to his uncle, "return" him to his family. M.O.Kosven called this order "return of the children". The nephews are all-powerful and have exclusive privileges in the family of the uncle on the maternal side. [3]

Present

Relics of avunculate custom are known at present. According to the Kazakh common law, the avunculate nephews could take anything from the relatives of the mother up to three times. In the Kyrgyz past a nephew, at a feast at his maternal uncle or grandfather, could take any horse from their herd or any delicacy. [3]

[lionel]

Tante in French, of course, not only means aunt, but is also an insult for a homosexual. Not too sure where that takes the argument - if anywhere at all - but maybe it's worth keeping in mind.

[Julie]

I think in this case, the use of 'avuncular' is just wrong.

and for your etymology pleasure, the OED has this for 'aunt'

[a. OF. aunte, ante, cogn. with Pr. amda, Lombard. amida:L. amita. In Eng. a mistaken division of mine aunt, as my naunt, occurs in literature from 13th to 17th c., and still dialectally; cf. nuncle for uncle, and auger, apron, etc. (Some mod.F. dialects have also nante (ma nante = mon ante); the modern F. tante, found already in 13th c., perhaps originated, in the language of the nursery, from OF. t'ante ‘thy aunt.’)]

I don't know if you have access to the OED, but, in case you don't already use it, I like this site as well: The Online Etymology Dictionary.

[Eric]

I think Julie hits the nail on the head: it's just plain wrong. Unless the writer was making some obscure joke about the woman being rather butch, Dr Katharine Rake will not be "avuncular". (Her name smacks somehow of progress.) The Wiki explanation blinds us with a pedantic stream of etymology, but doesn't answer Harry's original question about why mothers' brothers are regarded as kindly, in popular memory.

The Latin for father's sister is "amita"; for mother's sister "matertera".

And "avunculus" is a mother's brother; "patruus" is a father's brother.

So, given the strict logic that "avuncular" is derived from the mother's brother, the female equivalent would presumably be the father's sister, hence "amitar" or similar. But I can't see half-educated Guardian journos going to such ludicrous lengths to create a handy word when maybe "motherly" is really what was meant.

That's enough pedantry for today.

[hdw]

Phew, I think I'll stick to Swedish, where I feel on safe ground. The Swedes distinguish between morbror 'mother's brother', i.e. maternal uncle, and farbror 'father's brother', i.e. paternal uncle; also moster 'mother's sister' i.e. maternal aunt, and faster 'father's sister', i.e. paternal aunt. Interesting that they keep that distinction while Brits make do with aunt and uncle.

Same with cousin - the Germans feel the need to distinguish between Vetter 'male cousin', and Kusine 'female cousin'. Are relationships just not important to Brits?

Harry

[Clarissa]

avuncular for motherly?

[Bjorn]

Originally Posted by hdw

Are relationships just not important to Brits?

Well, on the other hand, you had the good idea of simply numbering your cousins - first cousin, second cousin, etc - whereas we use a bunch of different terms (brylling, syssling, nästkusin, etc) that mean different things in different parts of the country and generally just confuse things at family reunions.

[beelzebubbles]

=Eric The Wiki explanation blinds us with a pedantic stream of etymology, but doesn't answer Harry's original question about why mothers' brothers are regarded as kindly, in popular memory.

Ummm, I think it does though not in those terms. It is a term that describes a relationship between uncle and nephew that is akin to father and son.

In the societies where maternal filiation is strongly represented, the role of a father could be taken over by a maternal uncle, who would become a "social father" of his sister's children.

A closer family bond implies deeper good will, does it not? This word arose where that bond was stronger through the maternal line.

while a mother remains in the husband's house, her children (sons) "return home". The blood father and his relatives are obligated to turn the child over to his uncle, "return" him to his family... The nephews are all-powerful and have exclusive privileges in the family of the uncle on the maternal side.

A good reason to describe your uncle as a swell guy, I think.

As kinship rules changed the word devolved into one that describes all kindly, fatherly gentlemen who are not your father. It maybe devolving still further and losing its masculinity or Ms. Rake may not be very feminine or the journalist in question may not be very careful about the use of his/her language. Remember journalists invented the dreadful word "spendy." What was wrong with expensive, dear or conspicuous consumption, I don't know. But there you are it's in the OED know so we are stuck with it. Yuck!

I agree that "motherly" would be the appropriate word to use. No deeper family bond than that between mother and child, but maybe the journalist in question has mother issues best left undiscovered.

[Mirabell]

Originally Posted by hdw

Same with cousin - the Germans feel the need to distinguish between Vetter 'male cousin', and Kusine 'female cousin'.

NOt quite correct. They are two different sets of words. Vetter is an old-fashioned word, the female equivalent is Base.

Kusine (or Cousine, both are possible, Cousine is actually used more widely) has a different origin. The male equivalent here is Cousin (regionally also pronounced Ku-seng).

The Cousine/Cousin pair is more commonly used than Vetter/Base which are very old-fashioned.

[beelzebubbles]

Originally Posted by hdw

Same with cousin - the Germans feel the need to distinguish between Vetter 'male cousin', and Kusine 'female cousin'. Are relationships just not important to Brits?

Harry

In English, there is not a lot of distinction between feminine and masculine words. I don't think it has anything to do with the importance Brits put on relationships, but it may have to do with how old kinship groups were organized as in the generation of the term "avuncular." It also may have something to do with the dramatic changes this germanic language underwent after being invaded by several groups speaking other languages that were incorporated into English. Does any other germanic language have as much Greek, Latin and Norman French in it as English?

[Flower]

Originally Posted by hdw

Phew, I think I'll stick to Swedish, where I feel on safe ground. The Swedes distinguish between morbror 'mother's brother', i.e. maternal uncle, and farbror 'father's brother', i.e. paternal uncle; also moster 'mother's sister' i.e. maternal aunt, and faster 'father's sister', i.e. paternal aunt. Interesting that they keep that distinction while Brits make do with aunt and uncle.

Same with cousin - the Germans feel the need to distinguish between Vetter 'male cousin', and Kusine 'female cousin'. Are relationships just not important to Brits?

Harry

I think you need to know the little twist that we have in Denmark about aunts and uncles!

In Denmark its really only people who marry into the family who are called aunts and uncles.

If you are blood related, then you become morbror=mothers brother or farbror=fathers brother. Faster=fathers sister Moster=mothers sister.

About cusines. We also have male and female ones. Kusine=a female Fætter=a male.

If you are married to a faster, moster, farbror, morbror, then you are either tante or onkel/aunt or uncle.

Mormor or morfar=mothers mother or mothers father. Farmor or farfar=fathers mother or fathers father. We do however use a nick name for those, bedstemor or bedstefar=grandmother or grandfather.

Hope this clears up a few things!

[hdw]

Originally Posted by Bjorn

Well, on the other hand, you had the good idea of simply numbering your cousins - first cousin, second cousin, etc - whereas we use a bunch of different terms (brylling, syssling, nästkusin, etc) that mean different things in different parts of the country and generally just confuse things at family reunions.

I'm impressed by the avalanche of mail my little comment has evoked. It's remarkable how diverse the classification and naming of family relationships is in European countries alone, before you even start to consider the rest of the world.

As for the 2nd cousins, 3rd cousins (etc.) thing ... it's really only people who are into genealogy who get involved with calculating these degrees of kinship, but certainly I have been struck by the frequency of intermarriage between "cousins" of various degrees in my own east-coast Scottish fishing-village background. Marriage between 1st cousins was not unknown, but marriage between 2nd cousins - known in our dialect as "cousins' bairns" - was extremely common. I had a great-uncle (my father's uncle) who was married 3 times, all of his wives were related to him, and the 2nd and 3rd ones were sisters, and also his 2nd cousins.

Harry

[Eric]

I agree, Harry (#7). Swedish has a nice simple system that we should have adopted (mum's bruv, dad's bruv, mum's siss, dad's siss) in the days when such nice distinctions were important.

I didn't actually have a clue about the Latin, but I found a copy of a very tatty 1906 Latin-English dictionary, produced in the days when a Classical education was still regarded as educational. So I looked the words up.

To answer Harry's question: Brits don't have relationships. They just have sex and families. As long as you're not doing it with your cousin (whatever they may do in Fife), who cares in this day and age whether she's your mum's cousin or niece or your dad's? Is relation-precision in urban societies, where people move around a lot, still of any use? Or is it merely a quaint but useless throwback to the farming & fishing communities of yore?

Flower's Danish system is even more exact than the Swedish one. Is it still used in common speech in town and countryside?

The original point was: you can't call a woman "avuncular". I still don't think you can. And we still haven't answered the question why mum's brothers are nicer than dad's.

[hdw]

Originally Posted by Eric

And we still haven't answered the question why mum's brothers are nicer than dad's.

Given that inheritance in most societies is through the male line, I suppose a man who has inherited lands and titles might be resented by his less successful brothers. When the brother who has all the goodies dies, his surviving brothers aren't going to do their nephews any favours, they're going to try to grab the goodies for themselves and their own sons.

Maybe your mum's brothers are less likely to see you as a rival. They're too busy resenting each other.

Harry

[nnyhav]

yeah well Bob's yer uncle.

[beelzebubbles]

Originally Posted by Eric

I agree, Harry (#7).
The original point was: you can't call a woman "avuncular". I still don't think you can. And we still haven't answered the question why mum's brothers are nicer than dad's.

I thought I had put forth a viable reason twice.

By the way in the U.S. we call men "mothers" all the time.

[lionel]

Originally Posted by beelzebubbles

By the way in the U.S. we call men "mothers" all the time.

As an abbreviation?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by beelzebubbles

By the way in the U.S. we call men "mothers" all the time.

we do? or did something just go over my head here?