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Thread: American Poetry

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    United States American Poetry

    So. What you like? What you read?

    I keep talking to people recently who think that Wilbur is the best American poet alive. Um-

    So. I'll commit.

    I think that post WWII, the best poet, as far as craft and techique is concerned, would be James Merrill. I find the sheer scope of what he managed to do frighteningly impressive. He has, to my ears, written some of the best love poetry of his time and his AIDS related elegies are among the most moving poems I have ever read. He has mastered countless poetic forms, honed his craft to a fine point, yet he also had the strength and vision to produce The Changing LIght at Sandover, a 600 page long poem with the wackiest plot I've ever read, that contains worlds and worlds of stuff.

    My favorite living American poet is John Ashbery. He's...oh I suck at this. He, uh, he's amazing, that's what he is. For the past decade he's published a new book each year without any decline in quality. He's been consistently great, in different formats. He's brainy, emotional and extremely funny.

    One of my very favorite poets is Delmore Schwartz, who has been getting a bad rap, what with Saul Bellow's novel, Berryman's poems and Atlas' biography. People like Ashbery and Ozick keep pushing and promiting him, but most critics side with Bishop, Bellow, Berryman et al. If I had the money to do this, I'd beg Phillips to let me at the Schwartz papers and do something on his unpublished work but I haven't and I won't.

    One of my oldest faves and most consistently pleasurable poet is Sylvia Plath. There's also Lowell. Wheelwright. I love much of Bidart's work. Mary Oliver, often. I cannot stand Galway KInnell. I love David Ferry. Berryman, of course. Most of the Wrights (Jay, Charles, James). I want to like Jorie Graham but I don't. Last year I discovered Kenneth Rexroth and Donald Justice and both poets' "Collected Poems" have not left my desk since. Justice in particular I find stunning. His work is..he's a greatk, great poet. Dito Ted Berrigan, especially the Sonnets. Why has he been so critically ignored in recent years? I don't like Silliman. I cherish O'Hara. Early Creeley is great. I am not sure about Olsen. Or Levertov. or Hacker. I bought a volume of Sandburg's collected last month but I can't get into it. I can't stand Anne Waldmann.

    God there's so much else. I'll just stop here. Sounded stupid enough for one day.

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    Default Re: American Poetry

    Louise Bogan, how could I forget Louise Bogan!! The Blue Estuaries is one of my favorite vols of poetry period.

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    United States Re: American Poetry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirabell View Post
    So. What you like? What you read?
    Emily Dickinson

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    Default Re: American Poetry

    Oh isn't she just great?

    *sigh*



    I also love Shirley Kaufman. Much of Blau Duplessis' work is great, sometimes annoying. Ellen Bryant Voigt can be interesting.


    and my favorite unpublished poet Poet extraordinaire shigekuni.

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    Default Re: American Poetry

    I'm impressed, Mirabell, with your knowledge of American poetry. A man after my own heart. In the last year or so, I've been getting into poetry again after a hiatus of quite a few years. So I'll kick around a few names. Charles Simic's last book "That Little Something" was very enjoyable. Ted Kooser's stuff is good. But the two guys I most want to mention are Tony Hoagland and Carl Dennis. Hoagland has 3 books out, all excellent. Dennis' last 3 books are also top notch, the most recent less than the previous two.

    As far as non-American poets go, Symborska of course. And what about Edith Sodergran from Finland. I love her stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john h View Post
    I'm impressed, Mirabell, with your knowledge of American poetry. A man after my own heart. In the last year or so, I've been getting into poetry again after a hiatus of quite a few years. So I'll kick around a few names. Charles Simic's last book "That Little Something" was very enjoyable. Ted Kooser's stuff is good. But the two guys I most want to mention are Tony Hoagland and Carl Dennis. Hoagland has 3 books out, all excellent. Dennis' last 3 books are also top notch, the most recent less than the previous two.

    As far as non-American poets go, Symborska of course. And what about Edith Sodergran from Finland. I love her stuff.

    Simic. I always meant to try his work. Much of what Mark Strand does is very good. People keep telling me to read JV Cunningham. Since these are the same people that recommended Timothy Steele to me (see, my butt fell asleep again, just from mentioning his fucking name), I'm wary.

    Wallace Stevens. Oh god that man gives me shivers all over. How can he be so good? Same applies to Hart Crane. Oh what a poet.

    Contemporaries, I like some of Alfred Corn's work, and some of JD McClatchy's (I strongly recommend McClatchy's essays. It's a joy to read his thoughts on poems and poets). It was a hoot when Perloff, the most inept successful critic, claimed those two were writing shapeless free verse nonesense as this president's inaugural poet does Perloffian Responses shigekuni.

    I love love love Lorine Niedecker's work. Recently (re)published in one volume. Oh oh oh and Amy Clampitt. Clampitt! In her collected poems there is not one weak poem.

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    Default Re: American Poetry

    Great review Mirabell
    I'm also going back to poetry and this sure is a good guide to start.
    You often mention John Ashbery as the best living poet writing in English, but at the same you say it is very difficult him getting the Nobel Prize.
    Why's that? Is it because of his personal life that does not fit committee standards or it's something about his works that would limit his candidacy?
    Please also recommende me a good Ashbery book so I can start reading him

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    James Merrill: Lost in Translation

    for Richard Howard

    Diese Tage, die leer dir scheinen
    und wertlos f?r das All,
    haben Wurzeln zwischen den Steinen
    und trinken dort ?berall.



    A card table in the library stands ready
    To receive the puzzle which keeps never coming.
    Daylight shines in or lamplight down
    Upon the tense oasis of green felt.
    Full of unfulfillment, life goes on,
    Mirage arisen from time's trickling sands
    Or fallen piecemeal into place:
    German lesson, picnic, see-saw, walk
    With the collie who "did everything but talk"?
    Sour windfalls of the orchard back of us.
    A summer without parents is the puzzle,
    Or should be. But the boy, day after day,
    Writes in his Line-a-Day No puzzle.

    He's in love, at least. His French Mademoiselle,
    In real life a widow since Verdun,
    Is stout, plain, carrot-haired, devout.
    She prays for him, as does a cur? in Alsace,
    Sews costumes for his marionettes,
    Helps him to keep behind the scene
    Whose sidelit goosegirl, speaking with his voice,
    Plays Guinevere as well as Gunmoll Jean.
    Or else at bedtime in his tight embrace
    Tells him her own French hopes, her German fears,
    Her?but what more is there to tell?
    Having known grief and hardship, Mademoiselle
    Knows little more. Her languages. Her place.
    Noon coffee. Mail. The watch that also waited
    Pinned to her heart, poor gold, throws up its hands?
    No puzzle! Steaming bitterness
    Her sugars draw pops back into his mouth, translated:
    "Patience, ch?ri. Geduld, mein Schatz."
    (Thus, reading Val?ry the other evening
    And seeming to recall a Rilke version of "Palme,"
    That sunlit paradigm whereby the tree
    Taps a sweet wellspring of authority,
    The hour came back. Patience dans l'azur.
    Geduld im . . . Himmelblau? Mademoiselle.)

    Out of the blue, as promised, of a New York
    Puzzle-rental shop the puzzle comes?
    A superior one, containing a thousand hand-sawn,
    Sandal-scented pieces. Many take
    Shapes known already?the craftsman's repertoire
    Nice in its limitation?from other puzzles:
    Witch on broomstick, ostrich, hourglass,
    Even (surely not just in retrospect)
    An inchling, innocently branching palm.
    These can be put aside, made stories of
    While Mademoiselle spreads out the rest face-up,
    Herself excited as a child; or questioned
    Like incoherent faces in a crowd,
    Each with its scrap of highly colored
    Evidence the Law must piece together.
    Sky-blue ostrich? Likely story.
    Mauve of the witch's cloak white, severed fingers
    Pluck? Detain her. The plot thickens
    As all at once two pieces interlock.

    Mademoiselle does borders?(Not so fast.
    A London dusk, December last.
    Chatter silenced in the library
    This grown man reenters, wearing grey.
    A medium. All except him have seen
    Panel slid back, recess explored,
    An object at once unique and common
    Displayed, planted in a plain tole
    Casket the subject now considers
    Through shut eyes, saying in effect:
    "Even as voices reach me vaguely
    A dry saw-shriek drowns them out,
    Some loud machinery? a lumber mill?
    Far uphill in the fir forest
    Trees tower, tense with shock,
    Groaning and cracking as they crash groundward.
    But hidden here is a freak fragment
    Of a pattern complex in appearance only.
    What it seems to show is superficial
    Next to that long-term lamination
    Of hazard and craft, the karma that has
    Made it matter in the first place.
    Plywood. Piece of a puzzle." Applause
    Acknowledged by an opening of lids
    Upon the thing itself. A sudden dread?
    But to go back. All this lay years ahead.)

    Mademoiselle does borders. Straight-edge pieces
    Align themselves with earth or sky
    In twos and threes, naive cosmogonists
    Whose views clash. Nomad inlanders meanwhile
    Begin to cluster where the totem
    Of a certain vibrant egg-yolk yellow
    Or pelt of what emerging animal
    Acts on the straggler like a trumpet call
    To form a more sophisticated unit.
    By suppertime two ragged wooden clouds
    Have formed. In one, a Sheik with beard
    And flashing sword hilt (he is all but finished)
    Steps forward on a tiger skin. A piece
    Snaps shut, and fangs gnash out at us!
    In the second cloud?they gaze from cloud to cloud
    With marked if undecipherable feeling?
    Most of a dark-eyed woman veiled in mauve
    Is being helped down from her camel (kneeling)
    By a small backward-looking slave or page-boy
    (Her son, thinks Mademoiselle mistakenly)
    Whose feet have not been found. But lucky finds
    In the last minutes before bed
    Anchor both factions to the scene's limits
    And, by so doing, orient
    Them eye to eye across the green abyss.
    The yellow promises, oh bliss,
    To be in time a sumptuous tent.

    Puzzle begun I write in the day's space,
    Then, while she bathes, peek at Mademoiselle's
    Page to the cur?: ". . . cette innocente m?re,
    Ce pauvre enfant, que deviendront-ils?"
    Her azure script is curlicued like pieces
    Of the puzzle she will be telling him about.
    (Fearful incuriosity of childhood!
    "Tu as l'accent allemande" said Dominique.
    Indeed. Mademoiselle was only French by marriage.
    Child of an English mother, a remote
    Descendant of the great explorer Speke,
    And Prussian father. No one knew. I heard it
    Long afterwards from her nephew, a UN
    Interpreter. His matter-of-fact account
    Touched old strings. My poor Mademoiselle,
    With 1939 about to shake
    This world where "each was the enemy, each the friend"
    To its foundations, kept, though signed in blood,
    Her peace a shameful secret to the end.)
    "Schlaf wohl, ch?ri." Her kiss. Her thumb
    Crossing my brow against the dreams to come.

    This World that shifts like sand, its unforeseen
    Consolidations and elate routine,
    Whose Potentate had lacked a retinue?
    Lo! it assembles on the shrinking Green.

    Gunmetal-skinned or pale, all plumes and scars,
    Of Vassalage the noblest avatars?
    The very coffee-bearer in his vair
    Vest is a swart Highness, next to ours.

    Kef easing Boredom, and iced syrups, thirst,
    In guessed-at glooms old wives who know the worst
    Outsweat that virile fiction of the New:
    "Insh'Allah, he will tire?" "?or kill her first!"

    (Hardly a proper subject for the Home,
    Work of?dear Richard, I shall let you comb
    Archives and learned journals for his name?
    A minor lion attending on G?r?me.)

    While, thick as Thebes whose presently complete
    Gates close behind them, Houri and Afreet
    Both claim the Page. He wonders whom to serve,
    And what his duties are, and where his feet,

    And if we'll find, as some before us did,
    That piece of Distance deep in which lies hid
    Your tiny apex sugary with sun,
    Eternal Triangle, Great Pyramid!

    Then Sky alone is left, a hundred blue
    Fragments in revolution, with no clue
    To where a Niche will open. Quite a task,
    Putting together Heaven, yet we do.

    It's done. Here under the table all along
    Were those missing feet. It's done.

    The dog's tail thumping. Mademoiselle sketching
    Costumes for a coming harem drama
    To star the goosegirl. All too soon the swift
    Dismantling. Lifted by two corners,
    The puzzle hung together?and did not.
    Irresistibly a populace
    Unstitched of its attachments, rattled down.
    Power went to pieces as the witch
    Slithered easily from Virtue's gown.
    The blue held out for time, but crumbled, too.
    The city had long fallen, and the tent,
    A separating sauce mousseline,
    Been swept away. Remained the green
    On which the grown-ups gambled. A green dusk.
    First lightning bugs. Last glow of west
    Green in the false eyes of (coincidence)
    Our mangy tiger safe on his bared hearth.

    Before the puzzle was boxed and readdressed
    To the puzzle shop in the mid-Sixties,
    Something tells me that one piece contrived
    To stay in the boy's pocket. How do I know?
    I know because so many later puzzles
    Had missing pieces?Maggie Teyte's high notes
    Gone at the war's end, end of the vogue for collies,
    A house torn down; and hadn't Mademoiselle
    Kept back her pitiful bit of truth as well?
    I've spent the last days, furthermore,
    Ransacking Athens for that translation of "Palme."
    Neither the Goethehaus nor the National Library
    Seems able to unearth it. Yet I can't
    Just be imagining. I've seen it. Know
    How much of the sun-ripe original
    Felicity Rilke made himself forego
    (Who loved French words?verger, m?r, parfumer)
    In order to render its underlying sense.
    Know already in that tongue of his
    What Pains, what monolithic Truths
    Shadow stanza to stanza's symmetrical
    Rhyme-rutted pavement. Know that ground plan left
    Sublime and barren, where the warm Romance
    Stone by stone faded, cooled; the fluted nouns
    Made taller, lonelier than life
    By leaf-carved capitals in the afterglow.
    The owlet umlaut peeps and hoots
    Above the open vowel. And after rain
    A deep reverberation fills with stars.

    Lost, is it, buried? One more missing piece?

    But nothing's lost. Or else: all is translation
    And every bit of us is lost in it
    (Or found?I wander through the ruin of S
    Now and then, wondering at the peacefulness)
    And in that loss a self-effacing tree,
    Color of context, imperceptibly
    Rustling with its angel, turns the waste
    To shade and fiber, milk and memory.

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    Default Re: American Poetry


  10. #10

    Default Re: American Poetry

    I've always been a big fan of dickinson...I do prefer her earlier works though.

    Great James Merrill poem Mirabell, I have not seen that one before

  11. #11

    Default Re: American Poetry

    ..........
    Last edited by Josh Wardrip; 19-Mar-2012 at 21:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Burgandy View Post
    I've always been a big fan of dickinson...I do prefer her earlier works though.

    Great James Merrill poem Mirabell, I have not seen that one before
    no? it's one of his best but the otheres aren't shabby either.

  13. #13

    Default Re: American Poetry

    My introduction to American poetry came during my four-year English Language and Literature honours degree course at Edinburgh University in the mid-60s, and it was thanks to the English Language, not the English Literature, department. The English Language people offered a very innovative course (for those days) which taught you how to say something meaningful about a poem's effect on you by analysing such things as syntax and grammar, instead of waffling vaguely about "feelings" as the Lit. people did (there was no love lost between the two depts.).

    I remember doing e.e.cummings' "anyone lived in a pretty how town" - thanks to Google, I can now quote accurately instead of relying on my creaky memory -

    anyone lived in a pretty how town
    (with up so floating many bells down)
    spring summer autumn winter
    he sang his didn't he danced his did.

    We studied this as an illustration of how poetry can be semantically nonsensical but still "grammatical". Parts of speech change function - the verbs 'didn't' and 'did' become nouns for the purpose of the poem - and it makes a weird kind of sense.

    I particularly love -

    children guessed (but only a few
    and down they forgot as up they grew ..

    We also had a session on John Crowe Ransom's "Bells for John Whiteside's Daughter", which contrasts the little girl's passive "brown study" with her usual liveliness and speed -

    There was such speed in her little body,
    And such lightness in her footfall,
    It is no wonder her brown study
    Astonishes us all ...
    In one house we are sternly stopped
    To say we are vexed at her brown study,
    Lying so primly propped ...

    and suddenly you realise the little girl has died and is propped up in her coffin for the mourners to pay their last respects. Vocabulary like "brown study" and "vexed" are unexpected and potent in the context of a little life suddenly cut short.

    The lecturer who did this poem with us was a native Gaelic-speaker from the Western Isles, and he told us he had to consult a dictionary to find out what "brown study" meant. He was always saying things like "You haff to remember that English iss not my first language!"

    Harry

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    Scotland Re: American Poetry

    Quote Originally Posted by hdw View Post
    The lecturer who did this poem with us was a native Gaelic-speaker from the Western Isles... He was always saying things like "You haff to remember that English iss not my first language!"
    I wish every Scotsman/Irishman/Welshman were able to say this today!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirabell View Post

    found a clip of Roethke reading The Waking

    YouTube - Theodore Roethke - The Waking

  16. #16

    Default Re: American Poetry

    Sound and Sense: today's WSJ on On Poets and Poetry, reviewed by David Yezzi (I like that they put book reviews in the Opinion section!)
    T.S. Eliot looms large throughout “On Poets & ­Poetry”; in fact, he rarely leaves the stage for long. (Mr. Pritchard rightly dubs him the foremost critic of the 20th century.) Many other figures, with fine ­literary minds, make appearances as well. Mr. Pritchard reminds us, for instance, that the critic I.A. Richards did not share his estimation of Eliot prose, finding it “an amusing trail of logically ­incompetent ­manipulations of bogus information.”
    Among the various schools of contemporary literary criticism—which include the mephitic swamps of ­“theory”—Mr. Pritchard may be best described as a “close reader.” He painstakingly considers a poem’s sounds and sense, noting the ways they contribute to a poem’s aesthetic value.
    This approach allies Mr. Pritchard with what one high-powered scholar once characterized as “the beauty people”—those professors and critics who still concern themselves with the surface pleasures of ­poetry: its rhythmic structures, its affecting ­resonances, its properties as a work of art. The ­Harvard professor Helen Vendler figures among Mr. Pritchard’s model close readers, a critic concerned with the life of poetry in the hands-on way that he admires.
    Regarding the second of Eliot’s critical duties—the correction of taste—Mr. Pritchard proceeds with ­decorum; yet he does not shy from stating his ­differences with Ms. Vendler and other important ­critics. At the center of Mr. Pritchard’s poetic universe is Robert Frost, about whom he has much to say (and Ms. Vendler very little).
    “Frost’s is a poetic world large and difficult enough to get lost in,” he writes. He finds in Frost’s poems an expression at once appealingly plain (sometimes deceptively so) and canny. By ­contrast, the poems of Wallace Stevens (championed by Ms. Vendler) are frequently “elusive to the point of ­incomprehension, their gorgeous structures of sound not put to the service of illuminating ‘subjects’—human beings.”
    This quarrel mirrors one taking place in ­the classroom in recent decades, where Stevens has been largely on the rise as an academic fashion and Frost on the decline. It also recalls a famous exchange between the two poets, recounted by Frost’s biographer ­Lawrence Thompson: “The trouble with you, Robert, is that you write about—subjects.” “The trouble with you, Wallace, is that you write about—bric-a-brac.”
    The format of the pieces in “On Poets & ­Poetry”—most began as commissioned reviews—does not lend itself to wilder flights of inquiry; Mr. Pritchard responsibly walks readers through the critical and (when appropriate) biographical backgrounds of his subjects. He reminds us, for instance, that Hardy’s near-obsession with pets accounts for numerous poems on the subject. His generous appraisals of the critics Hugh Kenner and Donald Davie—both great admirers of Ezra Pound—are warm and winningly eclectic. While clearly not always Mr. Pritchard’s cup of tea, Pound ­receives a serious and respectful treatment. Yet, as he writes, “if Pound is judge to be a classic, it may be a classic of the sort Eliot feared, ... ‘to be read only by historians and antiquarians.’”
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    There's something wrong with a discussion of American poets that only makes glancing mention of Elizabeth Bishop (and as a critic at that) and none at all of Marianne Moore, Barbara Guest, Edna St. Vincent Millay ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by nnyhav View Post
    There's something wrong with a discussion of American poets that only makes glancing mention of Elizabeth Bishop (and as a critic at that) and none at all of Marianne Moore, Barbara Guest, Edna St. Vincent Millay ...

    Oh you are very right. I am an admirer especially of Edna's sonnets and all pf Bishop's work. Bishop's such an extraordinary poet. I think my favorite poem of hers is "Brazil, January 1, 1502". I also think that the posthumous collection of unfinished work is an abomination I think I said as much in the Roethke review. MArianne Moore I always found fascinating but the weird state of her collected poems (two very different versions? and I heard on the academic grapevine that a definitive edition is in the pipeline) has kept me from pursuing her work further.

    Guest I only know by name from reading stuff about the new york school. what do you like about her work?

  20. #20

    Default Re: American Poetry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirabell View Post
    Oh you are very right. I am an admirer especially of Edna's sonnets and all pf Bishop's work.
    These are my preferences as well.

    ... I also think that the posthumous collection of unfinished work is an abomination I think I said as much in the Roethke review.
    Here I disagree. The state of unfinishedness varied, and Quinn says as much. Vendler of course took issue, which I found ironic given that one of her books is Poets Thinking (well worthwhile itself) and it is in this aspect that much of the value of EAP&The Jukebox resides, in how EB put it together, which problems couldn't be worked out (even if ironed out), and, the hardest problem, figuring out how come some of these didn't pass muster with EB even when apparently as good as or even better than some of those that did.

    Marianne Moore I always found fascinating but the weird state of her collected poems (two very different versions? and I heard on the academic grapevine that a definitive edition is in the pipeline) has kept me from pursuing her work further.
    Less to my tastes, I'm in a holding pattern in the Collected, but the Bishop connection means something's there.

    Guest I only know by name from reading stuff about the new york school. what do you like about her work?
    Again, NY school is less to my tastes, but among them [after Ashbery] I think Guest was the best, the most innovative in composition with getting words just where they belonged (as in a landscape, or steps in a dance).

    Quinn also recommended Virginia Hamilton Adair, and I agreed (2nd half of post). [And how could I have left out H.D.? Maybe because I haven't read her ... not so with Adrienne Rich tho]
    Last edited by nnyhav; 07-Aug-2009 at 06:24. Reason: []
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