Wtf wlf

[saliotthomas]

As super Marcel put it.
What the fuck world lit forum.
There is sort of a depression going on.
Most of the rocking star and fun guys are gone, long discussion about school evidence, less discovery, no esprit de corps, self centered opinions...
Worst is, some interesting people came around but the "aestetic" level of nothingness must have scare them off.

The place is at it's lowest since the creation.

[waalkwriter]

Eh? Most people are just casual users. Even I'm trying to avoid going around too much on here simply because its a waste of energy. Only doing a few things here and there when I really want to write something and there's not really another place that's too valid to put it out for discussion.

I'm sorry you're unhappy, but maybe you're hardly one who has a right to talk. The extent of your involvement is stuff like this, going around throwing personal insults at other people for either saying things that do not interest you or that you disagree with it. I'm personally tired of you derisively telling me to go get laid every time I take the time to try to write out something that's on my mind, that's definitely not okay with me and I want it to stop. If you can't find constructive ways to be involved, leave.

[Mirabell]

and I want it to stop...

"...or I'll hold my breath until you do!"

"...or I'll throw a temper tantrum!"

"...because you're a big meany!"

[waalkwriter]

"...or I'll hold my breath until you do!"

"...or I'll throw a temper tantrum!"

"...because you're a big meany!"

Will you quit busting my chops mirabell? Your constant snarky little insulting comments annoy me as well, especially seeing as how I've never been anything other than respectful to you. I don't really get what I ever did to you to become the object of your near constant, and pompous, derision here.

I didn't like the perceived shots at me in this cruddy little post, especially by a guy whose definition of constructive is to go around making pointless little comments about nothing.

A good, passionate argument about whether minimalism or post-modernism is a legitimate art-form or are "good" is definitely constructive, and in my opinion, a lot of fun. Being condescended without good reason is not.

[titania7]

I didn't like the perceived shots at me in this cruddy little post, especially by a guy whose definition of constructive is to go around making pointless little comments about nothing.

A good, passionate argument about whether minimalism or post-modernism is a legitimate art-form or are "good" is definitely constructive, and in my opinion, a lot of fun. Being condescended without good reason is not.

Without addressing anyone's behavior specifically, waalkwriter, I just wanted to mention that, as in the real world, favouritism and the need to ostracize those who are are different than us, is also prevalent at online forums.

From the beginning of your sojourn here, I have been uncertain that you would be happy here.

I am not someone who subscribes to elitism--indeed, I detest it. Nevertheless, it exists and even those who do not see themselves as being elitist oftentimes are.

For, after all, it is not how we see ourselves or who we think we are but rather who we truly are that ultimately matters.

That being said, if you want to continue posting here, ignore those who treat you with derision or condescendion, remembering that their behavior is only a reflection of THEM and not of you.

I hope my words will bring you some peace of mind.

All the best,
Titania-Alexis


"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great ones make you feel that you, too,
can become great." ~Mark Twain

[waalkwriter]

Thanks. I really do appreciate them a lot. I like posting here to get opinions and it tends to be a good place to do so, I've gotten many good ones here. I do get worked up about perceived condescension sometimes, and that is what makes me get too passionate sometimes as well.

I got a little angry hear, reading a whining thread from a guy I've only seen make petty one line comments at people; me a lot of the time, half of them about getting laid. Throw in a specific shot at me personally, with his putting "aesthetics" in quotation marks and writhing his derision on me, and I have a lot of right to be upset, but you know its no big deal really because I don't respect what saliotthomas has to say anyway because he never bothers to say much.

It bothered me more that mirabell decided to add his own little snide insult towards me for no reason, in a situation where I had a right to be offended. Especially because I've always shown him so much respect for his knowledge and because I value his critical opinion and the extent to which he expresses himself. So his frequent cheap shots bother me much more.

Ah well. I like this site, I like throwing my hat into the ring every now and then. As long as there are sensible people who like a good argument and spin some good sentences out, I'll be enjoying myself, and learning as well.

[titania7]

Thanks. I really do appreciate them a lot.

I'm glad, waalkwriter.

I do get worked up about perceived condescension sometimes, and that is what makes me get too passionate sometimes as well.

Just remember that condescension says nothing about you and everything about those who are condescending towards you.

Somtimes, people are condescending towards us because we remind them of some aspect of themselves that they wish to ignore. Other times, it is because we threaten their security. There are lots of reasons why people condescend towards other people, but most of the time, it's rooted in some sort of fear or feelings of self-doubt.

When we're fully secure in nourselves, we condescend to no one for we know that we are neither superior nor inferior to anyone else.

I got a little angry hear, reading a whining thread from a guy I've only seen make petty one line comments at people; me a lot of the time, half of them about getting laid. Throw in a specific shot at me personally, with his putting "aesthetics" in quotation marks and writhing his derision on me, and I have a lot of right to be upset, but you know its no big deal really because I don't respect what saliotthomas has to say anyway because he never bothers to say much.

What I notice about comments such as those about getting laid that have been directed at you is that they are usually made with the hope AND intention of evoking a reaction in the person whom they are addressed to.

My advice: ignore.

When we do not allow someone to provoke us, they will eventually cease engaging the behavior that has been intended to aggravate, irritate, or belittle us.

It bothered me more that mirabell decided to add his own little snide insult
towards me for no reason, in a situation where I had a right to be offended.

The insult was a reflection of Mirabell, not of you. Yes, it was directed at you but if you stop to think about it, you'll see that it tells you more about Mirabell than it will ever say about you.

And the fact that you are so sensitive towards being insulted may be the key to why you are encountering so many insults, condescension, and derision. Does that make sense?

That does not mean it is wrong of you to be offended--not by any means. However, I have noticed that in life, once certain people know our weaknesses, they will oftentimes use them to their advantage.

To me, you seem the sort of guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, so to speak. You say more about yourself than many of us need to know, and although it is beautiful to see that you trust mankind to such an extent, stop to ask yourself whether or not they are deserving of this trust.

Most of us here barely know each other. It is important to keep that in mind. To use this forum as a "sounding board" and a place to discuss literature--that is one thing. But to look for something more. . .such as profound connections with other people or to expect that our best interests will necessarily be what other members are looking out for. . .
well, that is naive.

Ah well. I like this site, I like throwing my hat into the ring every now and then. As long as there are sensible people who like a good argument and spin some good sentences out, I'll be enjoying myself, and learning as well.

I am pleased to hear you speak with such enthusiasm, waalkwriter! Do remember the advice I have given you. I have a lot of life experience and I know that which I speak of. Although I don't possess wisdom in abundance, there are certain things I have discovered and if, in sharing them, I can help someone else, then it is my pleasure to do so.

May you continue to enjoy yourself, learning and also sharing your thoughts and ideas with all of us.

All the best,
Titania-Alexis

[lionel]

Eh? Most people are just casual users.

I don't intend in any way to be drawn into an argument here, but I think you meant casual posters, didn't you? I'm not sure that's true anyway, as far more visits to WLF are from those who haven't even registered, let alone commented.

BLOG

[lenz]

I think sometimes that WLF has degenerated into a worse than casual atmosphere of lazy thought and childish behaviour (guilty, as charged). When I first saw the name "World Literature Forum," it sounded like a place where serious literary discussion was demanded. Of course, we get a lot of that, but it surprises me that members who seem to take their reading seriously, read a lot and are educated enough to discuss or argue mostly reasonably and fairly objectively, let themselves fall back on personal prejudices from which they refuse to budge and take offense when their prejudices are pointed out to them. It's usually then that the silliness begins: a thread that begins as a discussion about an interesting writer turns into battle of angry clowns... which can be funny but gets too stupid after a while.

[waalkwriter]

I'm glad, waalkwriter.



Just remember that condescension says nothing about you and everything about those who are condescending towards you.

Somtimes, people are condescending towards us because we remind them of some aspect of themselves that they wish to ignore. Other times, it is because we threaten their security. There are lots of reasons why people condescend towards other people, but most of the time, it's rooted in some sort of fear or feelings of self-doubt.

When we're fully secure in nourselves, we condescend to no one for we know that we are neither superior nor inferior to anyone else.



What I notice about comments such as those about getting laid that have been directed at you is that they are usually made with the hope AND intention of evoking a reaction in the person whom they are addressed to.

My advice: ignore.

When we do not allow someone to provoke us, they will eventually cease engaging the behavior that has been intended to aggravate, irritate, or belittle us.



The insult was a reflection of Mirabell, not of you. Yes, it was directed at you but if you stop to think about it, you'll see that it tells you more about Mirabell than it will ever say about you.

And the fact that you are so sensitive towards being insulted may be the key to why you are encountering so many insults, condescension, and derision. Does that make sense?

That does not mean it is wrong of you to be offended--not by any means. However, I have noticed that in life, once certain people know our weaknesses, they will oftentimes use them to their advantage.

To me, you seem the sort of guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, so to speak. You say more about yourself than many of us need to know, and although it is beautiful to see that you trust mankind to such an extent, stop to ask yourself whether or not they are deserving of this trust.

Most of us here barely know each other. It is important to keep that in mind. To use this forum as a "sounding board" and a place to discuss literature--that is one thing. But to look for something more. . .such as profound connections with other people or to expect that our best interests will necessarily be what other members are looking out for. . .
well, that is naive.



I am pleased to hear you speak with such enthusiasm, waalkwriter! Do remember the advice I have given you. I have a lot of life experience and I know that which I speak of. Although I don't possess wisdom in abundance, there are certain things I have discovered and if, in sharing them, I can help someone else, then it is my pleasure to do so.

May you continue to enjoy yourself, learning and also sharing your thoughts and ideas with all of us.

All the best,
Titania-Alexis

Yes, I am far too sensitive to insults and criticism. I have always been too sensitive as a general rule. Most areas I an fairly insensitive, but I am very insecure about being criticized or condescended with respect to my opinions or views.

[Mirabell]

I have always been too sensitive as a general rule.

hey you're like 15, right? You're entitled to your tantrums. You're supposed to be a bit weird and high strung, that's teenagers, right? Live a little! Also, Liam gives good advice. He's almost a senior citizen, too, so you should listen to him. Now, I'm off applying ointments to my joints.

[waalkwriter]

hey you're like 15, right? You're entitled to your tantrums. You're supposed to be a bit weird and high strung, that's teenagers, right? Live a little! Also, Liam gives good advice. He's almost a senior citizen, too, so you should listen to him. Now, I'm off applying ointments to my joints.

Lol. I'll always have temper tantrums, I think. I'm actually regressing as I get older. I'm significantly more secure now, and less mature than I was a few years ago

[lenz]

Most areas I an fairly insensitive, but I am very insecure about being criticized or condescended with respect to my opinions or views.

I think you mean by "insensitive" that you are not overly sensitive in most areas, at least I hope so, because if you were completely unfeeling you'd be really hard to get along with. It's good to know you're maturing. I know how hard it is to be "living with adolescence."

[waalkwriter]

I think you mean by "insensitive" that you are not overly sensitive in most areas, at least I hope so, because if you were completely unfeeling you'd be really hard to get along with. It's good to know you're maturing. I know how hard it is to be "living with adolescence."

Eh, I'm getting worse ^^ I've sort of changed directions the last few weeks with where I want to go. Yes though, I meant I much more sensitive in some areas than others.

[miercuri]

I don't mean to come across as rude in any way, but really, waalkwriter, you try too hard. And as much as appreciate your enthusiasm, I think you take a bit too much pleasure in being a drama queen. You're basically making yourself a target, it's time you started growing out of this. I can't resist imagining you as somewhat similar to Max Fischer in Wes Anderson's Rushmore, is that really what one should be aiming for? Take this as friendly advice, I'm not even that much older than you. I hope that in two or three years from now you'll be able to look back to your 'tantrums' and feel slightly amused and embarrassed at the same time, I really do.
Also, this:

[Colette Jones]

I agree with the "wtf" question. If I want to read about a particular book or author, this site isn't much good anymore, because there is too much personal shit to wade through. I would love it if people could stick to talking about the book on a book thread, but as that doesn't seem to happen here, I don't look here very often.

As for "aesthetics" type threads, I think they are extremely boring so I don't read them. However, if all the personal shit was left to those threads instead of cluttering up the book and author threads, I would be happy.

[Eric]

I think what this forum suffers from most is ego-trippers with no sense of humour. Ego-trippers and humourless beasts are tolerable on their own, as long as they have a sense of literature. But when you combine the two handicaps, and add an unwillingness to conform to the tenets of English spelling and grammar, one does begin to wonder.

Like anyone else, I like insulting people now and again. But it should be done with wit and panache (rather than shit and pan ash). And when you're high on coke or Coke at three in the morning, you may not be in control of very much else but your bowels.

Those who wish to insult others on a regular basis should form a club of gladiators who (in real life, not on cyber-space) use clubs (notice the hilarious pun) to hit one another over the head until they are brain-dead and are therefore incapable of thread-spoiling, congenital irrelevance, and other misdemeanours.

I translated almost 2,000 words from the Estonian today. So I managed to spend a quiet morning doing my bit for literature. I didn't even have to use the word "fuck", "snarky" or "tantrum" in any part of the translation work I did.

[Bottle Rocket]

As super Marcel put it.
What the fuck world lit forum.
There is sort of a depression going on.
Most of the rocking star and fun guys are gone, long discussion about school evidence, less discovery, no esprit de corps, self centered opinions...
Worst is, some interesting people came around but the "aestetic" level of nothingness must have scare them off.

The place is at it's lowest since the creation.

I don't always understand exactly what you say, Thomas, but your meaning (often sardonic) is always clear. I guess I wasn't around in that Golden Age, but I've seen it happen with forums before -- but usually, if you air it out the serious members can sort out a workable community.

I know (because I've talked to them in real life) that there are people out there who read the site with interest but don't register or don't post because they feel sort of intimidated, either by the level and scope of the conversation (good, IMHO) or by the way some threads get way OT, or just plain nasty now and then (Very Bad, IMHO). It seems to me there's a place for that, but we should be careful to confine the squabbles, crosstalk, and general soap opera to the places they belong: specifically right here in the OT General Chat forum.

Even then, looking at the last page or so of Recently Watched Movies right now just has NOTHING to do with recently watched movies, and a visitor could easily be put off by that. Nothing that was said in those exchanges bothered me, only they should be on some other thread devoted to that kind of conversation. And those who like that person-to-person stuff know where to look for it, and those who want to avoid it can read other threads and be reasonably certain they'll stay on course, with some wobbles maybe but still, involved with literature instead of personalities.

One twenty-something I know, who told me one day that he'd been lurking around but never entered the actual discussions, was really interested and impressed (as I was, too) by the thread we had a couple of months ago about translation and The Magic Mountain. If we started (or revived) a Joseph Conrad "other novels" thread (Victory, Secret Agent, Under Western Eyes, etc.) I bet he'd join (as a member and as a commenter); I know a couple of other people like him, and I assume that there are a whole bunch more.

Some people -- I'm one -- gravitate to Off-Topic and General Discussion areas, which are designed precisely to allow for personalities and opinions and "sort-of-related" intellectual questions, issues, etc. But that stuff should stay there (and some of it should really be done via PM and not public forum at all, IMO). I like forming images of the regulars here -- what they look like, or do, or whatever -- and establishing that odd creation, the Internet Relationship. To me some WLF people seem really really smart but kind of arrogant about it, others seem sensible and grown-up and also know really a lot, and as with anywhere else there are a few who think they know really a lot when they really don't and that drives a lot of other people crazy. (I suppose different members would assign me personally to any of those three categories depending on the day)

I've got lots more to say on the subject, but I'll save most of it for my reaction to Eric's last, rather acerbic post.

Except for one thing, a rule I consider axiomatic:

You cannot survive without a sense of humor


BRocket

[Bottle Rocket]

I think what this forum suffers from most is ego-trippers with no sense of humour. Ego-trippers and humourless beasts are tolerable on their own, as long as they have a sense of literature. But when you combine the two handicaps, and add an unwillingness to conform to the tenets of English spelling and grammar, one does begin to wonder.

One does, innit? I agree with you, as so often, without quite being certain to what, precisely, I am agreeing -- or more particularly, whether we'd agree on who exactly those miscreants really are ...?

Like anyone else, I like insulting people now and again. But it should be done with wit and panache (rather than shit and pan ash). And when you're high on coke or Coke at three in the morning, you may not be in control of very much else but your bowels.

I should remark here, Eric, that your puns are endearingly awful, and that you are very much of the earthy not to say scatological British tradition that sometimes scandalizes the Inner Puritan so integral to Americans. That said, I agree with you again: a well-turned insult is a thing of beauty -- and should always, invariably be deliberate. Whether or not the pen is truly mightier than the sword, the art of duelling is far from dead.

Those who wish to insult others on a regular basis should form a club of gladiators who (in real life, not on cyber-space) use clubs (notice the hilarious pun) to hit one another over the head until they are brain-dead and are therefore incapable of thread-spoiling, congenital irrelevance, and other misdemeanours.

That is to say, they should become Arsenal supporters?

I translated almost 2,000 words from the Estonian today. So I managed to spend a quiet morning doing my bit for literature. I didn't even have to use the word "fuck", "snarky" or "tantrum" in any part of the translation work I did.

I have meant for some time to tell you that I've been reading your translation of Mati Unt's Things in the Night; I am enjoying my first encounter with Estonian literature, which would be immeasurably more difficult without your Afterword. Thank you.

This is one of the things I especially like about WLF: without it I would never have encountered Eric, his sometimes crotchety Eric-ness, his work, or the modern Estonian novel. In all ways, a treat, y'ast me.

There's a ton of stuff on this site that I don't know anything about, so I don't comment, but I read as much of it as I can and still keep up with the conversations I do know enough about to participate in. I probably talk/write way too much, but believe me, this ain't hardly a patch on my natural tendencies. If that bugs people, I'm sorry.

But I've been around a lot of sites for a long time, and although I understand the complaints I really have to say that IMHO this is still a very interesting, informative, involving sort of place. We can all do better, and we should try to, in a whole lot of different ways each according to his or her lights. It seems often that we forget that this is first and foremost a community, and as such is quite properly organized under both explicit rules and established traditions. We violate either at our peril.


BRocket

[waalkwriter]

I don't mean to come across as rude in any way, but really, waalkwriter, you try too hard. And as much as appreciate your enthusiasm, I think you take a bit too much pleasure in being a drama queen. You're basically making yourself a target, it's time you started growing out of this. I can't resist imagining you as somewhat similar to Max Fischer in Wes Anderson's Rushmore, is that really what one should be aiming for? Take this as friendly advice, I'm not even that much older than you. I hope that in two or three years from now you'll be able to look back to your 'tantrums' and feel slightly amused and embarrassed at the same time, I really do.
Also, this:

You know, I'm not really going to respond to that. I like to argue. I'm no different in person. My teachers know this, my friends know this, my family knows this. I learn, in effect, by arguing. It's how I not only come to learn about an issue, but also how I come to learn about how I feel something and learn better ways to say it.

So, damn right I like to argue and do it passionately. If you don't believe something passionately, why the hell believe it at all? Yet to deal with bullshit claims about "drama queen". I don't make myself a target, and it's not something I am or intend to "grow out". I've always been very different than everyone else, therefore my tastes and opinions are very different. Deal with it. Most 5 year olds don't spend their time discussing Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin with their grandfathers, I did. I don't know why you seem to assume that part of growing up is losing your passion, and taking on ordinary and popular opinions even if they don't truly appeal to you, such as with minimalism and post-modernism, and other issues I've received flack for here.

I've always dealt with everything on my own terms. Its so ingrained within that it has nothing to do with my maturity, though personally I've come to feel maturity is overrated. It is relevant to a discussion I had with a friend recently on whether just because something has an answer we should find it, if it makes us happier to in some form assign an immutable meaning to the universe, whether it be through mathematics or religion. My critical statement was that an engineer can design a bridge, a politician can get it built, but neither can tell you what to do with your life when you get to the other side of it. Indeed we so often find that what we sought is not what we truly wanted when we reach our destination; knowledge and intellectual understanding are shallow joys of the mind, not of the heart, and yet so often in growing up we forget our hearts, forget the simple pleasure of experience and feeling, and thus we constantly, throughout the generations, recommit Adam and Eve?s great mistake and slowly destroy our own innocence over and over again.

And by the way, I hate Wes Anderson's films. The Life Aquatic and Darjeeling Limited were both films so awful to watch that I could hardly write negative enough reviews. His work is dry and listless, his characters empty, his plot meandering and unsatisfying. And I do mean this in all seriousness, despite the admittedly comical nature of this addendum Wes Anderson is someone I will not be giving another chance. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you.