The City of Your Final Destination

[Eric]

Ireland is also an interesting comparison. After the uprising in 1916, the Irish have gone it alone. But again as Harry says, even the independent part of Ireland is regarded as "sort-of Britain" by rather a lot of people, and it seems to be the diehards in the still-British part, rather than the fully independent part who are the most anti-British if they are Catholics. What I often wonder is how British-Irish relations would look were the whole of the Irish Isle to be made into one political entity, separated from Britain.

And only a tiny minority of Irish people have Gaelic as their mother tongue. Looking over to the Baltics and Iceland, you can see small countries that are actually proud of their languages and use them in parliament as well as commerce and education. Ireland is only proud of Gaelic as a token of not-Britishness. But it seems to foster Gaelic in a very piecemeal way.

Ireland thought it could cock a snook at Britain by relying on the EU instead. But that has come severely unstuck, and now Ireland is a basket case economically. Would it have been better for it to remain part of Britain? I don't know.

The Scottish and Irish situations are not entirely parallel. But Ireland does give a clue as to the good and bad sides of being wholly independent from the former colonial power.

[hdw]

Inverness...my knowledge of Scottish geography comes primarily from Macbeth. I forget where that pops up there though.

Here's a Welcome to Inverness for you -

http://www.inverness-scotland.com/

I had to laugh when I saw these photos and the caption. Note the little Pakistani boy artfully positioned by the lookout telescope to show how multicultural Inverness is. Actually, most of the non-Scottish population of Inverness is Polish, and shortly after Poland acceded to the EU there was a community of 3,000 Poles up there. Staff in the job centres were taking courses in conversational Polish.

It's a joke that they use the Gaelic word "craic" in their spiel, as Gaelic is one language you are unlikely to hear there unless the annual Mòd, the festival of Gaelic culture, is paying one of its occasional visits to Inverness. A peculiarity about the way the locals speak is that it's the one part of Scotland where there is no proper dialect as such - they rejoice in the reputation of speaking a very pure English.

Macbeth was more or less a local boy - Thane of Cawdor, which isn't far away.

The surname Macbeth/McBeth is still with us, e.g. the late poet George McBeth. I had ancestors called Macbeth in Fife.

The former professor of early Scottish History at Glasgow University, whom I used to know well, couldn't really have chosen any other profession - his name is Archibald Alexander Macbeth Duncan.

Harry

[waalkwriter]

Well, the Welsh are the only ones who seem to be preserving their language as a way of life and culture and not merely just a symbol of anti-Englishness. What was the percentage that spoke Welsh in the most recent census? Up again to 34, 35% right? And the thing is that kids who have grown up in this new Welsh-language boon speak it more than the adults, I recall reading that in most places a majority of kids can speak pretty good Welsh, and so the last Celtic language seems to be thriving over there. I thought Wales was Liam's ideally settling place. It certainly seems nice to me, especially the mountains. I wouldn't mind settling there myself.

[lionel]

Well, the Welsh are the only ones who seem to be preserving their language as a way of life and culture and not merely just a symbol of anti-Englishness. What was the percentage that spoke Welsh in the most recent census? Up again to 34, 35% right? And the thing is that kids who have grown up in this new Welsh-language boon speak it more than the adults, I recall reading that in most places a majority of kids can speak pretty good Welsh, and so the last Celtic language seems to be thriving over there. I thought Wales was Liam's ideally settling place. It certainly seems nice to me, especially the mountains. I wouldn't mind settling there myself.

The Welsh would love you.

BLOG

[Flower]

For those of you that like NYC and want to visit it or even move here one day:

Somebody had a really nice, if slightly unusual idea, to turn an old, out-of-use, aboveground train-track into a narrow promenade with grass and bushes, etc. It is now called The High Line park and has been open to the public, free of charge, for some time.

Before:






After:








I'm ashamed to say that I haven't been to this place yet, not even once, .

This is real nice, Liam! You should definately go! You might even get "lucky" in such a place...

[hdw]

Well, the Welsh are the only ones who seem to be preserving their language as a way of life and culture and not merely just a symbol of anti-Englishness. What was the percentage that spoke Welsh in the most recent census? Up again to 34, 35% right? And the thing is that kids who have grown up in this new Welsh-language boon speak it more than the adults, I recall reading that in most places a majority of kids can speak pretty good Welsh, and so the last Celtic language seems to be thriving over there. I thought Wales was Liam's ideally settling place. It certainly seems nice to me, especially the mountains. I wouldn't mind settling there myself.

Their language is about all they've got. Wales is one of the most deprived areas of the UK in terms of unemployment, education and health. Bridgend is the youth suicide capital of the UK. My younger son works in south Wales for the charity Barnardo's, and lives in Newport, which is Shitsville. You Yanks have a real misty-eyed view of our Celtic fringes. It's not really like Brigadoon.

Harry

[waalkwriter]

The Welsh would love you.

BLOG

I'm not sure whether I should be insulted or not, haha.

[waalkwriter]

Their language is about all they've got. Wales is one of the most deprived areas of the UK in terms of unemployment, education and health. Bridgend is the youth suicide capital of the UK. My younger son works in south Wales for the charity Barnardo's, and lives in Newport, which is Shitsville. You Yanks have a real misty-eyed view of our Celtic fringes. It's not really like Brigadoon.

Harry

Lot's of poverty now that coal and manufacturing are in the shithole. They'll have to rebrand themselves. Education, tourism, agriculture, etc. The cost of living is also much lower there is it not? As compared to London, where prices are truly outrageous. I think these things tend to even out or can be evened out with enough work and good policy.

[hdw]

Bala is a popular destination for people interested in Welsh language and culture -

http://www.balawales.com/about_bala.htm

Harry

[lionel]

I'm not sure whether I should be insulted or not, haha.

Why should it have been a comment about you? I've been to Oxford, MS, but only for a few days: great place (especially for the Faulkner link), love the weather, but not a deal to do it's such a small place.

Wales though, I've been many times, but then it's much bigger and contains multitudes compared with Oxford, MS. Check it out, it's not so many hours away, but drive away from the urban area to get a clearer picture. That's all I'm saying.

BLOG

[waalkwriter]

Why should it have been a comment about you? I've been to Oxford, MS, but only for a few days: great place (especially for the Faulkner link), love the weather, but not a deal to do it's such a small place.

Wales though, I've been many times, but then it's much bigger and contains multitudes compared with Oxford, MS. Check it out, it's not so many hours away, but drive away from the urban area to get a clearer picture. That's all I'm saying.

BLOG

I was only being a bit snide. I'd love to visit Wales, though I'm not sure I'd want to live there. I wouldn't want to live in Oxford either. It's a pretty dull little town all in all, only tolerable because I'm busy and god gave me the internet. I don't really like the south much period. There are some beautiful places in the mountains, but that's about it. Ashville always intrigued me, but I think I'd like to settle elsewhere.

[Liam]

You might even get "lucky" in such a place...

Whatever do you mean, ma'am?

[Eric]

I'm glad that Harry occasionally pours the cold water of realism over some of the more Yeatsianically romantic views of the Celtic fringe. My gut instinct is to be rather pro-Celtic or -Gaelic, but I do realise, as I have preached before on many occasions, that the Celts have been their own worst enemies with regard to the preservation of their language. Without going into the problematic historical background, the results do show that the Welsh have done best, and the Irish and Scots Gaelic-speakers have been left behind.

I still find it rather amusing that when I once raised these rather controversial opinions, and praised the Balts and Catalonians, one of the people who supported me (almost the only one) was a Gaelic-speaker from the part of Ireland where they speak Gaelic "for real", as opposed to for tourists and political correctness.

I don't think I would want to settle as my "final destination" as this thread is so dramatically yclept, in any of the Celtic-Gaelic parts of Britain. My ideal is a smallish town fairly near to a big city, and with nice countryside around. So that I can, quite simply, have the best of all worlds including nature and culture, urban living and the countryside.

[hdw]

Apart from the cold water douches, I try to do my little bit for Gaelic literature on this forum - not that I am any expert thereon - and posted a nice little poem today on the Sorley MacLean thread at European Literature.

Harry

[waalkwriter]

I'm glad that Harry occasionally pours the cold water of realism over some of the more Yeatsianically romantic views of the Celtic fringe. My gut instinct is to be rather pro-Celtic or -Gaelic, but I do realise, as I have preached before on many occasions, that the Celts have been their own worst enemies with regard to the preservation of their language. Without going into the problematic historical background, the results do show that the Welsh have done best, and the Irish and Scots Gaelic-speakers have been left behind.

I still find it rather amusing that when I once raised these rather controversial opinions, and praised the Balts and Catalonians, one of the people who supported me (almost the only one) was a Gaelic-speaker from the part of Ireland where they speak Gaelic "for real", as opposed to for tourists and political correctness.

I don't think I would want to settle as my "final destination" as this thread is so dramatically yclept, in any of the Celtic-Gaelic parts of Britain. My ideal is a smallish town fairly near to a big city, and with nice countryside around. So that I can, quite simply, have the best of all worlds including nature and culture, urban living and the countryside.

Is Sweden your final destination? Or do you want to end up somewhere else? The great northern forests of Finland?

[hdw]

My gut instinct is to be rather pro-Celtic or -Gaelic, but I do realise, as I have preached before on many occasions, that the Celts have been their own worst enemies with regard to the preservation of their language. Without going into the problematic historical background, the results do show that the Welsh have done best, and the Irish and Scots Gaelic-speakers have been left behind.

You make too much of the language issue. Wales may have a bigger proportion of the population regularly using Welsh than use Gaelic in Scotland or Irish in Ireland, but Ireland is a sovereign nation (tho' still with close ties to the UK) and Scotland has its own parliament with more powers than the Welsh Assembly has. All the Welsh have to distinguish them from the rest of us is their language. Rather like Gaelic in Scotland, knowing Welsh can be a bit of a meal-ticket in Wales, especially in cultural circles. The "Taffia" look after each other.

Harry

[waalkwriter]

You make too much of the language issue. Wales may have a bigger proportion of the population regularly using Welsh than use Gaelic in Scotland or Irish in Ireland, but Ireland is a sovereign nation (tho' still with close ties to the UK) and Scotland has its own parliament with more powers than the Welsh Assembly has. All the Welsh have to distinguish them from the rest of us is their language. Rather like Gaelic in Scotland, knowing Welsh can be a bit of a meal-ticket in Wales, especially in cultural circles. The "Taffia" look after each other.

Harry

I think maintaining a separate and independent language is a bit more important than political institutions, in terms of preserving culture and cultural history. The thing is, partially because of poverty and weak economic growth, Wales is a lot different than England, and you can't really say that for Scotland, especially not in places like Edinburgh; I had a friend study there and he said it was pretty much like a smaller, nicer, newer version of London.

[Eric]

Harry mentions that he does his bit to promote Gaelic literature. I'd do the same if I could read any Caltic language. What I'm objecting to is the false sentiment of romance (Walter Scott is sometimes accused of similar) that is engendered by people who may not even know the languages in question. Sorley MacLean in his other spelling was no doubt a great poet. The people I object to are not the bards, but those who complain about the Highland Clearances and other Highland disasters, but do not think it part of their remit to bother to learn and use the language "for real".

Waalkwriter's question about wanting to stay in Sweden or move on is fair enough. But there are as many forests in Sweden as there are in Finland, if not more. Scandinavia does suffer from a picture postcard cliché image which gets in the way of reality. (Or as DWM, late of this parish, would have it, the dark, gloomy wintry, suicidal, dimension that he seemed to enjoy wallowing in.)

As for the language ticket, the Baltics, which I never cease to use as comparison, try to attract monolingual drunken Finns and anyone else that will come over to pay money to stay in nice places and spend even more on booze. That is called tourism. But the Balts don't insist on every tourist speaking the lingo. And yet their indigenous languages run the three countries, so to speak, and are not dying minority rituals, bolstered by idealistic enthusiasts.

[waalkwriter]

Harry mentions that he does his bit to promote Gaelic literature. I'd do the same if I could read any Caltic language. What I'm objecting to is the false sentiment of romance (Walter Scott is sometimes accused of similar) that is engendered by people who may not even know the languages in question. Sorley MacLean in his other spelling was no doubt a great poet. The people I object to are not the bards, but those who complain about the Highland Clearances and other Highland disasters, but do not think it part of their remit to bother to learn and use the language "for real".

Waalkwriter's question about wanting to stay in Sweden or move on is fair enough. But there are as many forests in Sweden as there are in Finland, if not more. Scandinavia does suffer from a picture postcard cliché image which gets in the way of reality. (Or as DWM, late of this parish, would have it, the dark, gloomy wintry, suicidal, dimension that he seemed to enjoy wallowing in.)

As for the language ticket, the Baltics, which I never cease to use as comparison, try to attract monolingual drunken Finns and anyone else that will come over to pay money to stay in nice places and spend even more on booze. That is called tourism. But the Balts don't insist on every tourist speaking the lingo. And yet their indigenous languages run the three countries, so to speak, and are not dying minority rituals, bolstered by idealistic enthusiasts.

I had just read though that Finland was the most un-deforested country of Europe. The stat I saw was 75% of the country is forest, including some of the last great, truly wild expanses of open forest in Europe. Though I hear there's also a lot in Norway and Sweden. I just wondered if you were happy where you're at, or if you wanted to move further into the periphery. Or, if you don't like long harsh winters, move to Spain. Or Southern France.

[hdw]

Harry mentions that he does his bit to promote Gaelic literature.

Well, let's not forget that large swathes of Scotland spoke at least one other Celtic language before those Gaelic-speaking Scots arrived from Ulster in the 6th century AD (some experts place them in western Scotland even earlier).

Southern Scotland spoke an early form of P-Celtic or Welsh called Cumbric, and that name survives across the border in the English region of Cumbria. It's related to the Welsh name for Wales, Cymru [cum-ree]. And a poem called Y Gododdin is not only the earliest poem to survive from the area of Britain now known as Scotland .. it's also the earliest poem in any form of the Welsh language. The Gododdin were the tribe known to the Romans as the Votadini and their capital seems to have been where Edinburgh [Din Eidyn] stands now, the site of Edinburgh Castle probably being their stronghold.

Around 600 AD a band of warriors from Edinburgh marched south to prevent the northern advance of the Angles, and did what Celts have done best throughout their history - got well and truly slaughtered. The battle took place at "Catraeth", which is probably Catterick in Yorkshire (still a place with military connotations). The bard Aneirin [un-ire-in] survived to tell the story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Gododdin

Harry