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Thread: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    Sondheim would have been a brilliant choice, actually, though I think they chose Dylan because of his influence beyond music?

    JCamilo brings up a fascinating point. I've always been a bit curious about the idea that literature exists as something primarily "written" when in fact the very history and tradition of literature doesn't point in that direction at all. There has been and still persists a rich oral literary tradition surrounding us.

    Cheers Uemarasan. It would be too silly to repeat it or use time to suggest that a "songwriter" is, as the word writer implies, a writer (and Dylan being american, would make him an actual american writer) unless the guy thinks playwriters are not actual writers and we shoudl stop talking about shakespeare.

    I think, since the Nobel is a prize with political concerns, that the "insular" comment was bitting back the proverbial literal asses of the academy (so dumb it was) and the pressure to pick an american name grew too much. They looked the usual suspects (Pynchon, Roth, McCarty) and probally still felt they dealt with too american themes, so Dylan (not first time his name was mentioned, right? And not exactly someone who never won important literary prizes) must have became a natural name. All those years avoiding americans and giving prizes to more "marginal" languages, but more obscure also must have helped. With that they still get someone from a not usual genre (poetry), get an american that is clearly able to to have a dialogue with the world and is not obscure.

    It is not an offense as if they gave the prize to Ryan Lotche. It is not more an offense than giving to Saramago the prize and not a Brazilian or Neruda prize instead of Borges was not an offense to Argentina. I would prefer - because I think they are good writers, better than Dylan, to see McCarty or Pynchon winning, but they american reaction is being priceless, however as bad as dismissing oral poetry as literature, the talent of Dylan and this obssession for one kind of literature and format.

    I repeat, they are not expanding the limits of literature. There is a genre, named Lyrical poetry, has 3000 years old and it is about Poetry and Music together.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    How you can compare Dylan's receiving the prize to Saramago's is beyond troglodytic.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    I think the point of his post was that songs are very much within the parameters of literature as fiction, prose, nonfiction, drama, etc. It's not as if a photographer was awarded the prize

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Ater, Lividus, Ruber, & V View Post
    How you can compare Dylan's receiving the prize to Saramago's is beyond troglodytic.
    Troglodytic is your reading capacity. I am questioning the theory that giving the prize to Dylan is an offense to all america because it excludes X or Y writer, which is an imature and arrogant assumption, with the fact that giving to Saramago and ignoring Brazilian writers - 10x more users of portuguese - was an intentional offense. I was not comparing Dylan and Saramago skills, but frankly, someone who thinks we can compare only what is equal, should give up writing, perhaps reading and maybe dancing.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    guys,guys,please .don't fear if you hear a foreign sound to your ear

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    I think the point of his post was that songs are very much within the parameters of literature as fiction, prose, nonfiction, drama, etc. It's not as if a photographer was awarded the prize
    Apparently, people can only read novels and romances - some because they would be scared to find Romance and Novels were written in verse - be more scared to find that literary production for most countries, cultures and existense have little to do with this american model (which is kind of doomed).

  7. #67

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Thank you for this gift of a post; I don't even have to argue with it. Your enlightened reasoning speaks for itself.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanthess View Post
    The cool kids have plenty of prizes that the rest of the world is interested in: the Oscars, Grammys, MTV and Brit awards, etc. Us, nerdy kids, only had the Nobels (because only nerds care about the many other book prizes).

    So, when the SA gives its Literature prize to a "song and dance man" (his own witty words), it feels sad, like a brainy, unathletic, honor roll girl applying for a place in the cheerleading squad.
    I jotted down some of my thoughts on the topic and made use of your post. I think it's a good observation. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/5149...-in-literature

    Not too happy about this award, personally.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    Apparently, people can only read novels and romances - some because they would be scared to find Romance and Novels were written in verse - be more scared to find that literary production for most countries, cultures and existense have little to do with this american model (which is kind of doomed).
    True, and I have yet to read a convincing argument that songs do not belong to literary tradition.

    I do agree with Cleanthes though that I feel for traditionally "literary" writers who are excluded. They get so little press these days. But the Nobel can't award everyone and please everyone.

    This prize seems like it was tailored to provoke discussion above all.
    Last edited by Uemarasan; 13-Oct-2016 at 20:26.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    This prize seems like it was tailored to provoke discussion above all.
    It certainly seems, doesn't it? I too would have preferred to see the prize go to a more "traditional author" - William Trevor, Kadare, Pynchon - but I am not disappointed.

    It can be argued that, historically, songs were (and are) part of the literary tradition, used to tell stories. Just think about the minstrels/troubadours of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, operas, musicals, etc.

    More recently, songs were used to push social messages, explore universal issues, human conditions, and very few people, if any, come close to Dylan. A lot of his songs really are akin to poetry. Take the music away from I Saw Joe Hill and it still makes for a lovely poem. Dylan's works are more than pop, his lyrics do transcend. You can't compare him to pure pop entertainment like Prince, Michael Jackson, The Bieber, Taylor Swift.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    This is a joke, and an insult. To end the American Nobel drought with the selection of Bob Dylan is to once and for all verify the Academy's bias against American writers.

    Not to make light of Dario Fo's death, but it's fitting this announcement came just hours after Fo passed away. Guess they felt it was time to selected another living example of just how petty the Academy can be.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    True, and I have yet to read a convincing argument that songs do not belong to literary tradition.

    I do agree with Cleanthes though that I feel for traditionally "literary" writers who are excluded. They get so little press these days. But the Nobel can't award everyone and please everyone.

    This prize seems like it was tailored to provoke discussion above all.
    Well, that is the point. The Noble is not inclusive. Every year - unless you believe the literary world sucks so much that only 1 author should win it - someone is excluded.

    Now, how many representants from oral tradition won this? Kipling was somehow one, Tagore too. People complaning about the inclusion of a genre to defende the inclusion of another, which is already represented is a bit off the track.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by sheep View Post
    I jotted down some of my thoughts on the topic and made use of your post. I think it's a good observation. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/5149...-in-literature

    Not too happy about this award, personally.
    Honestly, no. I do not mind that people think a prize that excludes all writers in the world every year should be somehow fair and just do not recognize they have their bias just as we have ours. Be sad, because the nobel is not that relevant. It is not literature.
    But some of the stuff said in the post...


    Removing the oral traditions?Oral traditions aside, there would be no Literature. There wouldn’t be Homer, Virgil, Dante, Guimarães Rosa , Joyce, Poe, Andersen, Wordsworth, Voltaire, Shakespeare, Ariosto, Borges, García Márquez, Jack London, heck, entire genres such as poetry and short stories. I mean, even the name prose is a reference to oral literature.

    It is a tip, if somene will build an argument and needs to put aside “dictionary definitions” to fit in the argument, he is building up something fallacious. Of course, Literature is mostly everything is written, but it never could put aside other artistic expressions. Writing is something that only a minority in the world can do. Check out books like Quran or the Bible and see how they will survive.

    Plus, Dylan is obvious a writer. He has books publishes and his lyrics were written down everywhere. What he is trying (the blogger) is to resume the definition of literature to the production of novels and romances in the mass industrial scale. That is all, which is funny how later he will complain about the false notion that the Nobel is not a huge scale event, but a respected prize then to talk about as the only big stage prize for writers.

    The prize is always under question. Not because the many names he skipped Which already dismiss the notion it has some perfection that allow us to respect it. Kipling won it and he is controversial (not his quality), there was nazi suporters among the winners, there is Churchil – serious, who f.ucking consider Churchil a great literary reference, even if within the genre he is a great name – an oral genre, isn’t so, he won for his oratory? He didn’t sing, but who will come to say the genre Cicero practiced is not literary? Bertrand Russell is a genius, but not a literary genius. Your sole purpose seems to imply the nobel is given to prose/fiction genre.

    Maybe Dylan will refuse it, but the suggestion that the Nobel is a form to cement someone career is hilarious. Most of winners are past their peak, most had their best work already done, most are famous in a way or another, the majority past 50. The nobel is not a work to impulse a new life to the creative life of the author, more to a quiet calm retirement.

    I am pretty sure, there was a poor journalist waiting the call when Neruda won. Or when Garcia Marquez won. Or Churchill. Or Bernard Shaw. Or Sartre. Or Saramago. All of them, kind like accomplished professionals which Nobel was just one more trophy on their shelves. No, the Nobel goes to accomplished authors and of course, Dylan prize is opening a new idea. It is the first victory for a pop artist (not the first victory of someone popular), it is a first for a rock and roll artist. It is a first for someone which major contribution to art is oral.

    I come from a country that those definitions would be hilarious. Vinicius de Moraes is a huge poet, perhaps the best sonnet maker in portuguese in XX century and is also the mind behind the lyrics of Bossa Nova. Anyone coming with the notion that music and literature are so exclusive would be laughed. The victory of Dylan may be just an attempt to rub some pop shine on the nobel label, but it is a new idea, a new opening. Suggesting otherwise is crazy.


    He implies this prize will be against the normal definition of literature, but it is what he defines as literature. What the world define is something way bigger than he is trying to suggest.

    He should be honest. He started that post “reducing” what is meant by literature, remember. That because he knew there is not a broadening. Writing of Music Lyrics has been always part of literature. It is a genre. It is CAPITAL L, because Poetry is the crown of Literature, as would say W.Somerset Maughan.

    It is not books that have the nobel. It is Literature. There is a difference. Literature is not about the fetish about the object, it is about the reading habits, the transformation between the text and the reader. A book –said Borges – is only an object. Keep that in mind lets stop pretending literature is and always be this model made by a mass media industry exploring the novel model. It is outdated. Wake up American. Literature is something bigger and the Nobel smaller.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Ater, Lividus, Ruber, & V View Post
    Thank you for this gift of a post; I don't even have to argue with it. Your enlightened reasoning speaks for itself.
    You can be the one acting as you won an argument in the Internet. To me I only need the first line of western literature:

    "Sing, oh muse, the rage of Achilles"

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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    You can be the one acting as you won an argument in the Internet. To me I only need the first line of western literature:

    "Sing, oh muse, the rage of Achilles"
    This is 2016, not 1st Millenium BC. A lot of things have happened in the meantime.

    Nowadays we call those who sing "singers" and those who write literature "writers"

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by kadare View Post
    This is 2016, not 1st Millenium BC. A lot of things have happened in the meantime.

    Nowadays we call those who sing "singers" and those who write literature "writers"
    Sorry, but we, or you, do not define the words like Humpty Dumpty. The Academy of Sweden just rubbed on your face something on contrary. While you are, quoting Homer again, nobody, and we, those who know literature is not a bubble invented in the last 10 years, are a legion.

    Seriously, you must live inside some basement to think Oral Literature is dead. Those singers of poems still around, there are international festival with them everywhere. Go out, face the sun, buy a ice cream. Listen.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Those are some disturbing points there.The idea that literature cannot be orally expressed strikes me as ignoring the rich and diverse history of literary tradition from the beginning until now. Without the literary and literal voice in epics and storytelling, there would be no "written" voice. At worst, the insistence that literature be "written" might come across as decidedly Western-centric and dismissive of the reality of literature in other parts of the world and other parts of society. Surely Africa's greatest literature still remains an oral literature?

    If this were a perfect award, though, an African storyteller such as Hajj Ahmed Ezzarghani would have gotten it, but the impact on the discussion of songs as literature might have been minimal if Bob Dylan hadn't been the winner. Can't have everything.
    Last edited by Uemarasan; 13-Oct-2016 at 21:46.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    Sorry, but we, or you, do not define the words like Humpty Dumpty. The Academy of Sweden just rubbed on your face something on contrary. While you are, quoting Homer again, nobody, and we, those who know literature is not a bubble invented in the last 10 years, are a legion.

    Seriously, you must live inside some basement to think Oral Literature is dead. Those singers of poems still around, there are international festival with them everywhere. Go out, face the sun, buy a ice cream. Listen.
    Why so aggressive bro? Smile! One would think today that SA made a choice according to your liking you'd be happy, yet you're here attacking anyone who's not of the same opinion as you.

    When did I say Oral Literature was dead? LOL.

    This is Oral Literature https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRawu44Voi4

    What Bob Dylan, Lady Gaga, Rebecca Black do is NOT oral Literature, but MUSIC.

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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Vazquez View Post
    Nice post, JCamilo. I agree with you about Vinicius de Moraes. He is indeed an amazing poet, I would place him among Brazilian giants.

    Anyway, I can´t stop thinking about Kadare´s The File on H. People walking from village to village, singing, rearranging old poems... like Fo - a very old form. A very, very, old form. Before Cervantes... the image of the bard. They don´t call Shakespeare "The Playwright", but " The Bard". By definition: a storyteller, verse-maker and music composer... Tagore is also called "The Bard" (he was also a musician).
    This is an example of what Kadare was talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRawu44Voi4

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Let me say I'm not a fan of this selection, and I'll leave it at that. But looking at the future what can we learn from this. I think it's a harbinger of things to come. This is obviously a new SA. The old unwritten rules may not apply now. Clearly they aren't afraid to select a popular "writer", so this puts Murakami and writers of his acclaim into play for future Nobel's. I get the feeling also that how in the past you'd say since writer x from South America won it'll be a long time since they are awarded again. I don't think that's the case now. It took some time, but the SA has caught up to the times. Or perhaps become a product of the times. What's clear is that they are playing by new rules. It'll be interesting to see where the next decade takes the Nobel of Literature.

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