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Thread: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Not only Africa, but India, Arabic world, South America and even the tradition of Song Lyrics published to be read is very strong inside Brasil. It is a lot of absurd and prejudice not recognize merits and also the part inside literature that Dylan represents.

    You may be upset one or another author won, but you would be upset last year too. I mean, someone just dismissed Homer in a literature forum. How absurd is that? Literary traditions do not die or get lost or oldated, they are added to more and new traditions, but they are all alive. Maybe ignored, but this shouldnt be done by a literature lover.

    Then people wonder why such conservative waves come from Trump or the overall intorelace towards other cultures linking both extremist sides of terrorism. It is part of the same tendency to refuse to listen or recognise other expressions.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    The argument that it's 2016 in fact reinforces the argument for Dylan. What is in fact literature for today's generation? And I don't mean just asking literary snobs or book nerds or university professors or Harold Bloom. I'm pretty sure many, especially in the younger generation, would willingly declare songwriting as a literary endeavor. Some would argue it's even more relevant, especially in American culture, because honestly how many can say that a traditional poet such as Ashbery has the same cultural influence and reach as Dylan?

    It seems that fellow writers, even more so than critics, are sympathetic to this year's prize.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by kadare View Post
    Why so aggressive bro? Smile! One would think today that SA made a choice according to your liking you'd be happy, yet you're here attacking anyone who's not of the same opinion as you.

    When did I say Oral Literature was dead? LOL.

    This is Oral Literature https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRawu44Voi4

    What Bob Dylan, Lady Gaga, Rebecca Black do is NOT oral Literature, but MUSIC.
    I love it how he's putting words in mouths, spewing ad hominem attacks left and right, and justifying arguments no one has brought up. Good times.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    The argument that it's 2016 in fact reinforces the argument for Dylan. What is in fact literature for today's generation? And I don't mean just asking literary snobs or book nerds or university professors or Harold Bloom. I'm pretty sure many, especially in the younger generation, would willingly declare songwriting as a literary endeavor. Some would argue it's even more relevant, especially in American culture, because honestly how many can say that a traditional poet such as Ashbery has the same cultural influence and reach as Dylan?

    It seems that fellow writers, even more so than critics, are sympathetic to this year's prize.
    You and JCamilo do make some interesting points. Literature has evolved a lot since Homer's time and it's going to evolve in the future too.

    We'll have to wait and see how things are going to unfold.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by kadare View Post
    Why so aggressive bro? Smile! One would think today that SA made a choice according to your liking you'd be happy, yet you're here attacking anyone who's not of the same opinion as you.
    You are the one who came trying to force your definition of literature in a post that wasnt direct to you. The simple fact you ignore the same poster was comparing me to a troglodyte and try to imply I am the one attacking those who do not agree with me is ridiculous. Be Honest and next time you try to flexes your muscles, wear a better swimsuit.

    When did I say Oral Literature was dead? LOL.
    When you implyed those poets of oral literature are singers and not writers, which implies what they did is music and not literature, killing oral literature.

    This is traditional oral literature. It is around. But it is not the only form that orality have been linked to literature.

    What Bob Dylan, Lady Gaga, Rebecca Black do is NOT oral Literature, but MUSIC.
    Where I said they are?

    But lets see What Shakespeare, Racine and Moliere do is not literature, but THEATRE.

    Imagine that, did I sound silly too?

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    Really, nobody sounds witty comparing Bob Dylan writing to Lady Gaga.
    And you think you sound witty comparing Dylan with Shakespeare? That's completely ridiculous as well!

  7. #87

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by kadare View Post
    You and JCamilo do make some interesting points. Literature has evolved a lot since Homer's time and it's going to evolve in the future too.

    We'll have to wait and see how things are going to unfold.
    Yes, it's interesting times that we're living in. Personally, Bob Dylan wouldn't have been my first choice as a songwriter. But what I'm glad to take away from this year's prize is that it's certainly challenged my notions of what I think literature is and what it will become, and I'm more than willing to reassess my own closely held beliefs, to discuss them, and to open dialogue. I concede that to insist that literature should only fit certain aesthetic and generic dimensions is almost akin to performing an autopsy on it.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by kadare View Post
    You and JCamilo do make some interesting points. Literature has evolved a lot since Homer's time and it's going to evolve in the future too.

    We'll have to wait and see how things are going to unfold.
    Ok, Kadare, I am not sure if it is about evolution of literature or anything (I posted a bit, that I think the political pressure after the fiasco of the insular comment could be bitting the nobel on the ass, I think it is more like it. I do not believe too much in a miraculous shapeshift of a conservative group).

    But this is also about the reaction. Most Nobels fans should just acknowledge that even if, lets say Roth was picked, it would be also a political call, rather than a true recognition of his talent. He probally does not need it anyways.

    Attacking Dylan pick is getting ridiculous, the man is a great artist, has nothing to do with his own choice. Sure, would be nice to see someone more dedicated to literature win, but I tell you, would be nice to see someone dedicated to literature everywhere. The reaction when someone out of the novel/romance prose wins is often an outrage. People are forgetting Dylan has writtings published, that he do have a strong link with literature, he is not a lonely star in this sky (people mentioned Leonard Cohen for example), the oral performance of poetry is growning and it is linked to the music scene (does not matter if it is good, if there is no pratice, there wont be good works) and the exchange between Music/Literature, that was always a part of busines.

    The reaction is ridiculous and the literary community forgetting it to defend their own bias is a bit a bigger problem than a group of old people in sweden having a bias own their own.
    Last edited by JCamilo; 13-Oct-2016 at 22:19.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel del Real View Post
    And you think you sound witty comparing Dylan with Shakespeare? That's completely ridiculous as well!
    Serious, You are a moderador, see a post implying i am a troglodyte, and what you have to say is that.

    Let's see, Daniel....

    Did Shakespeare and Dylan worked more for another art form than literature, one for Theatre and another for Music?

    Yes or No.

    Then reflect if my comparassion is ridiculous as comparing Bob Dylan to Lady Gaga.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Now that I think about it, the Academy of Sciences and Arts of Albania should nominate Kadare for next year's Nobel for "shedding light on the complex mechanisms of evolution of Oral literature". "The File on H" "Broken April", "Spiritus" are all about different forms of Oral Literature so they should be more than enough to get him into the shortlist along with Lady GaGa and Eminem (sorry couldn't resist making another cynical joke, it's been a frustrating day after all )

    Peace!

    Let's try not to insult each other anymore.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    Serious, You are a moderador, see a post implying i am a troglodyte, and what you have to say is that.

    Let's see, Daniel....

    Did Shakespeare and Dylan worked firstly for another art form than literature, one for Theatre and another for Music?

    Yes or No.

    Then reflect if my comparassion is ridiculous as comparing Bob Dylan to Lady Gaga.
    Of course you're not a troglodyte. Now some comments you have dropped defending Dylan's Nobel are completely leaning towards that direction.

    If you have assisted to any class of literary genres you might remember Theather/Drama is one of them. Songs are not. Lyrical poetry is, but what Dylan does is not lyrical poetry, it's not even poetry. He has some smart songs where, at its peak, it can touch literary merits. That's it! That cannot be enough to be awarded with the most prestigious literary award in the whole world.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by DB Cooper View Post
    What's clear is that they are playing by new rules. It'll be interesting to see where the next decade takes the Nobel of Literature.
    Good points DB Cooper. It's going to be interesting for sure. There's no denying that this years' choice, at the very least, has fostered debate and conversations among readers. I look forward to see where they go from here. Perhaps Rumiko Takahashi or Mitsuru Adachi will win the Nobel someday!

    It's beginning to look like quem não gosta de Dylan bom sujeito não é. É ruim da cabeça ou doente do pé.
    To sit alone in the lamplight with a book spread out before you, and hold intimate converse with men of unseen generations, such is a pleasure beyond compare.
    Yoshida Kenko

  13. #93

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    JCamilo, for someone wailing reading comprehension, you sure take liberties. I said your comparison was troglodytic, not you. But you are making a fool of yourself.

    Saramago is considered one of the greatest novelists of the latter half of the previous century. His award was not a snub to Brazil, the very notion is inane and troubling. A former SA member before he died stated they were arguing between him and Antunes for years. Nothing to do with the population of Brazil. China made this argument up until Gao, even slighting Laxness because he came from an underpopulated country. It's the literature and the quality, not the population density.

    Further, no one here is arguing that oral literature isn't literature. People are lambasting the decision of candidate, BOB DYLAN. He's neither the greatest representation of oral traditions, nor is he the greatest poet working in English. The fact you somehow conflate this decision with Trump is risible. Trump is about fascism and American superiority; he and his followers support this old, white, heterosexual American. If this had been a black, lesbian, transexual from Zimbabwe, then we could see how accepting they are.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by kadare View Post
    Now that I think about it, the Academy of Sciences and Arts of Albania should nominate Kadare for next year's Nobel for "shedding light on the complex mechanisms of evolution of Oral literature". "The File on H" "Broken April", "Spiritus" are all about different forms of Oral Literature so they should be more than enough to get him into the shortlist along with Lady GaGa and Eminem (sorry couldn't resist making another cynical joke, it's been a frustrating day after all )

    Peace!

    Let's try not to insult each other anymore.
    I think he is not the first author linked to orality in a way or another. I mentined Kipling, but Churchill was due his oratory, Tagore also wrote song lyrics, maybe Wole Soyinka and other playwriters. It would be a great help for the recognition of those cultures, maybe the acknowledge of oral culture and the use of orality to educate and help people to became readers. But not sure if that was the point or will be at all.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Ater, Lividus, Ruber, & V View Post
    JCamilo, for someone wailing reading comprehension, you sure take liberties. I said your comparison was troglodytic, not you. But you are making a fool of yourself.

    Saramago is considered one of the greatest novelists of the latter half of the previous century. His award was not a snub to Brazil, the very notion is inane and troubling. A former SA member before he died stated they were arguing between him and Antunes for years. Nothing to do with the population of Brazil. China made this argument up until Gao, even slighting Laxness because he came from an underpopulated country. It's the literature and the quality, not the population density.

    Further, no one here is arguing that oral literature isn't literature. People are lambasting the decision of candidate, BOB DYLAN. He's neither the greatest representation of oral traditions, nor is he the greatest poet working in English. The fact you somehow conflate this decision with Trump is risible. Trump is about fascism and American superiority; he and his followers support this old, white, heterosexual American. If this had been a black, lesbian, transexual from Zimbabwe, then we could see how accepting they are.
    I'm interested, though. Which songwriter would you have personally chosen? Aside from Leonard Cohen perhaps, who would be a worthy candidate for "American oral literature"?

  16. #96

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    I wouldn't have given it to an American. Maybe Nongenile Masithathu Zenani? I can't recall if she died, however.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    I'm interested, though. Which songwriter would you have personally chosen? Aside from Leonard Cohen perhaps, who would be a worthy candidate for "American oral literature"?
    I'm a huge fan of Morrissey, his music and his lyrics. However I would've been the first to complain if awarded The Nobel Prize for Literature. There should be no space for songwriters at the Nobel, as simple as that.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel del Real View Post
    Of course you're not a troglodyte. Now some comments you have dropped defending Dylan's Nobel are completely leaning towards that direction.
    Seriously, you are a moderator. You should not encourage trolling or personal attacks. If there is anything to discuss, just bring on. Do not bring those one line offenses, specially considering there is a discussion happening here despite the trolling.

    If you have assisted to any class of literary genres you might remember Theather/Drama is one of them. Songs are not. Lyrical poetry is, but what Dylan does is not lyrical poetry, it's not even poetry. He has some smart songs where, at its peak, it can touch literary merits. That's it! That cannot be enough to be awarded with the most prestigious literary award in the whole world.
    Really? Theatre does not even needs to have a text. It is not literature. Nor is cinema. You may study the scripts or the plays inside literary studies, but you can do that with any song lyric. I have seen studies about Beatles lyrics inside the academy. I am sure Dylan also atracts the attention of the academy and professional literary critics. In fact, lyrics of Dylan have been included in the Oxford book of American Poetry, no?

    And what does Dylan? He writes lyrics for music. What did Lord Byron in Hebrew Melodies? The exactly same thing. What did Safo? Pindar? John Donne and his Hyms? All the religious poetry from medieval ages? The exactly same thing.

    No one of them was writting to publish a book, they had another art form as their target, but they became part of the literary canon and were studied as such. Not sure what you meant Dylan does not poetry, as I have no idea which definition exclude writing lyrics as poetry, but you can try to explain. And of course, there is enough recognition of Dylan by the Academia - Not talking about the obvious recognition that the Swedish Academy just did - but academics in USA and outside and his peers that think he is a poet and his lyrics stand as good poems.

    So, the heart of the matter is him being a musician. Newsflash, literature and all arts can be integrated. That is what tell us the story of literature. Not isolated, reigning alone in her Halcyon, beautifull but terrible and isolated from all.

    I prefer others, but I do not attack his genre or this artist.

  19. #99

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Why not though? Why isn't songwriting literature if it is, in fact, writing? For the past few hours, I've read defenses for songwriting as literature, giving historical precedents, literary traditions as evidence, but I haven't encountered an entirely compelling argument against it. Not trying to contradict, just genuinely curious. I think the argument that Bob Dylan isn't a great songwriter in the first place is much more convincing as a reason NOT to give him a prize for literature.

    Also, do we really need to let literature classes define what is literature, period? Cinema as a visual art was treated with the same disdain by the academe early in its history and, well, look at where it is now. It occupies the same space as painting, photography.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    Really? Theatre does not even needs to have a text. It is not literature. Nor is cinema.
    Cinema is not, Theatre is a literary genre. That is not me saying it, it's the canon. I really encourage you to take a course on literary genres, it helps you know!

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