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Thread: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

  1. #241
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Alright, let's leave Bob Dylan in 2016, where he belongs.

    P.S. @peter It's Mitrush Kuteli.
    Last edited by kadare; 11-Aug-2017 at 22:05.

  2. #242
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Because Dylan's been dragged up again, let me just say rhat prior to his winning I considered his nomination a joke that would never be taken seriously. I love Bob Dylan and have for years, but the idea of him winning this prize seemed proposterous to me (I lumped him into the same category of "nominations" as George RR Martin).

    That being said, after the announcement and after listening to the Academy members speak. His win totally makes sense and I support it. Their reasoning was solid and it's doubtful someone could truly name another songwriter/lyricist alive who publishes their works in poetic form in print books and has the same level of influence that Dylan does.

    A lot of the time people don't seem to be able to separate their personal dislike of an artist and their work from what that artist has accomplished or pioneered.

    As an example: I despise Harold Pinter. I hate his works and find them simplistic and childish. I think his politics amount to little more than high school level political activism. His dialogue is rudimentary and his scenarios nearly all repetitive takes on the same few themes.

    BUT, I get why he won the prize. He pioneered and helped to expand a style of theater (the theater of rhe absurd). I can disagree with him winning and personally dislike that he won, but he was "deserving" of the prize for his contributions and influence.

    I think there's often a disconnect between someone saying a winner is "undeserving" and the actual held opinion that really just amounts to "I personally don't like this author and they don't fit my personal mold of what's 'literature' is."

  3. #243
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ater, Lividus, Ruber, & V View Post
    I didn't know you done did the German, kadare. By the way, you should read Golding. He's much more than just that guy who wrote Lord of the Flies. His later work is experimental, disturbing, complex, harrowing, and at times, difficult to understand when he warps English to fit his modernistic needs.
    Having just read his novel Pincher Martin last weekend, I concur.

    Oddly, even in English most of his ouvre outside of his first three novels remains under appreciated and generally the works aren't even sold in bookstores.

  4. #244

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Isahoinp View Post
    Didn't an Acadmey member quit in anger over Golding winning?
    Quote Originally Posted by redheadshadz View Post
    Re: Golding: Artur Lundkvist didn't resign but he did publicly say he thought Claude Simon should've won it over Golding. I think part of the reception was also that everyone was expecting Anthony Burgess or Graham Greene if a Brit won.
    From what I've understood it was something like this. The SA has its sessions on thursdays and Artur Lundkvist wasn't able to attend a particular October thursday in 1983 but said he would reschedule his plans if the SA would have the Nobel vote on that day. Lundkvist said he was told they wouldn't do the voting that week so he didn't show up but they did indeed do the voting which gave the 1983 Nobel to Golding and this made Lundkvist, who didn't like Golding but wanted Simon to win, really pissed so he told the media what he thought about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liam View Post
    ^Aniara is certainly a very, very interesting work by Martinson. Also, the way he chose to commit suicide was horrible. Just horrible. Wikipedia adds a nasty little note that he killed himself because he couldn't cope with the controversy surrounding his winning the Nobel Prize 3 years prior. I don't know how true or false that statement is, perhaps a Swede could elaborate?
    Yes, apparently Harry Martinson did commit suicide through harakiri with a pair of scissors at the psychiatric department of the Karolinska Hospital in 1978. When Martinson and Johnson were awarded the 1974 Nobel a witch-hunt started in the Swedish newspapers saying that the two writers were way to light-weight for the Nobel and that the SA was just a committee for mutual admiration. Johnson shook it off himself but Martinson, who never had been able to take criticism well, got fixated with the criticism and eventually suffered a mental breakdown which in the end led to his suicide. Already from the beginning there were rumours that it he had commited harakiri but it was only revealed in 2000 when the former permanent secretary Lars Gyllensten, who had left the SA in 1989 because of the Rushdie-affair, wrote about it in his memoirs after getting permission from the daughters of Martinson.

  5. #245

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    His memoir -- you're speaking of Minnen, bara minnen? How is Gyllensten, by the way? Never picked something up by him but should.

  6. #246

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Isahoinp View Post
    Having just read his novel Pincher Martin last weekend, I concur.

    Oddly, even in English most of his ouvre outside of his first three novels remains under appreciated and generally the works aren't even sold in bookstores.
    Don't mean to nitpick, but its oeuvre, not ouvre (ouvre means, to open)

  7. #247

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Two female authors who I think deserve the prize at some point:

    Marie NDiaye

    Still young at 50 but quite prolific. I thought Ladivine was wonderful. Her strength as a writer doesn't lie in any extraordinary feats of prose but rather the construction of narrative, so she could be overlooked in favor of stylists such as Krasznahorkai whenever potential winners are discussed? Quite similar to Conde in this regard.

    Interestingly enough, she's co-written a screenplay with Claire Denis, and if the Academy wanted to make another unconventional choice and award a screenwriter, I'd say Denis belongs among the handful of great screenwriters, along with Apichatpong Weerasethakul.

    Minae Mizumura

    She has published only four novels along with some non-fiction works but each of those four novels are exquisitely crafted. Her latest was just published in English recently (Inheritance from Mother). Perhaps a bit too unprolific for serious consideration. Still, at 65, I hope she publishes a few more novels then maybe she'll be brought up more when it comes to speculating about the prize. Similar to NDiaye, her talent is in narrative rather than prose.

    I was going to suggest Catherine Breillat, a filmmaker/novelist, as a point of discussion regarding unconventional candidates, but I have yet to read any of her novels in English.

  8. #248

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ater, Lividus, Ruber, & V View Post
    His memoir -- you're speaking of Minnen, bara minnen? How is Gyllensten, by the way? Never picked something up by him but should.
    Exactly! Minnen, bara minnen (Memories, only memories or Memories, bare memories) where he is critical to a lot of persons in the Swedish cultural sphere and among these members of the Swedish Academy such as his successor as permanent secretary Sture Allén. I haven't read him neither but he has called his writings "existentialist basic research" and considered his most important role model to be Soren Kierkegaard.

  9. #249
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by hoodoo View Post
    Don't mean to nitpick, but its oeuvre, not ouvre (ouvre means, to open)
    I usually post from my iPhone with spell correct turned on, it sometimes does thing like this.

    The phone is also why I make multiple posts for responses rather than just quoting everything in one post. It's difficult trying to format that on a tiny screen.

  10. #250
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    Two female authors who I think deserve the prize at some point:

    Minae Mizumura

    She has published only four novels along with some non-fiction works but each of those four novels are exquisitely crafted. Her latest was just published in English recently (Inheritance from Mother). Perhaps a bit too unprolific for serious consideration. Still, at 65, I hope she publishes a few more novels then maybe she'll be brought up more when it comes to speculating about the prize. Similar to NDiaye, her talent is in narrative rather than prose
    I don't really see any reason why she could or should win. She hasn't published a novel in 15 years and as of late just comes off as a grumpy language elitist who gets off on criticizing other's works/linguistics while she herself doesn't produce anything "literary." Lately all of her works have been about Japanese language usage and linguistics, and while these works are good for those fields, I'm not really sure academic works in the field of linguistics qualify as "literature" (yes, I'm aware there are linguists in the Swedish Academy).

    It's also hypocritical to me that she criticizes those who "westernize" the use of Japanese language and literature when her most famous novel is a retelling of a classic work of British literature.

    Nearly any time I've seen her being mentioned or praised in articles it's been by white western men whining about Murakami because they don't like his style and think his popularity is undeserved.

    Whether you like him, hate him, or feel completely indifferent about him, Haruki Murakami is likely Japan's only realistic Nobel candidate and will be for decades to come. Shuntaro Tanikawa is widely discussed in Japanese press but he hasn't really won any international prizes or acclaim. He's also 85 years old. I see him as sort of a John Ashbury type, widely acclaimed in his country and one of the country's greatest living poets, but he's not really pioneering anything or making waves in the international literary scene.

    Yoko Tawada, meh, a Japanese expat who's highly acclaimed by Germans. I don't see much happening there.

    Yoko Ogawa is simplistic and many of her works are either cheesy romances or fall into the craze of Japanese torture fetishization (Ryu Murakami as well).

    You can name all sorts of Japanese writers who have won the Akutagawa (an award written for new writers) and one or several other of Japan's prestigious awards (Yomiuri, Tanizaki, etc) but few of them have any sort of international reputation and many of them are essentially genre fiction authors.

    As far as South Korea goes, Ko Un seems unlikely to me at this point. Han Kang seems likely in maybe 10-15 years but as of now I think she's too recent and hasn't published enough (not to mention she's really only become known internationally since The Vegetarian came out in 2015).

    For Southeast Asia, aside from Duong Thu Huong I can't name anyone of particular note who's known internationally.
    Last edited by Isahoinp; 12-Aug-2017 at 22:57.

  11. #251
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Next stop, Russia. There are 3 Russian writers I'd love to win the Nobel:

    Ludmila Ulitskaya (winner of the 2014 Austrian State Prize for European Literature, the 1999 prix Médicis étranger, etc. (by the way speaking of the big international prizes it's hard to think of any writer more laureated than Colombian Alvaro Mutis: the 1989 prix Médicis étranger, the 1990 Nonino, the 2002 Neustadt, -Mutis was the only writer to win both the Nonino and the Neustad-, the 1997 Princesa de Asturias, the 2001 Cervantes... Mutis was a true Borgesian down to his two favorite books, Stevenson's Treasure Island and Kipling's Kim)).
    A good entry point into Ulitskaya's deep, human, highly readable books would be her Sonechka: A Novella and Stories; to read The Queen of Spades or Sonechka is to be enthralled.

    Victor Pelevin, a master fictionist (in the Borges sense) bordering on the sci-fi and other kinds of genre fiction (kinda like that other genius, Volodine), Pelevin is nonetheless a true original. Two good entry points into his work would be The Life of Insects and The Numbers, books that must be read to be believed. (I know, I know, some of you may prefer Vladimir Sorokin and his Ice Trilogy over Pelevin if a Russian fantasist were to win the Nobel) .

    Vladimir Charov/Sharov a highly original writer mixing the novel of ideas with fairytales and religion (would anybody please translate Sharov's Возвращение в Египет/Retour en Égypte, winner of the 2014 Russian Booker prize or Воскрешение Лазаря/The Resurrection of Lazarus?). His novels Les Répétitions/The Rehearsals and Before and During are easily among the best books I've read this decade, genre defying, intellectually defiant, absolutely amazing books.
    To sit alone in the lamplight with a book spread out before you, and hold intimate converse with men of unseen generations, such is a pleasure beyond compare.
    Yoshida Kenko

  12. #252
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Isahoinp View Post
    I don't really see any reason why she could or should win. She hasn't published a novel in 15 years
    Incorrect, again. You know, wikipedia might not be the most reliable source...

  13. #253
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisIsland View Post
    Incorrect, again. You know, wikipedia might not be the most reliable source...
    Don't blame Wikipedia. Inheritance from Mother (a Newspaper Serialized Novel) is clearly listed among Mizumura's works (look for ISBN 9784120043475) in her Japanese Wikipedia page https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B0...BE%8E%E8%8B%97 ; Uemarasan even described that novel as Mizumura's latest. Here's an interview where Mizumura talks about it: http://lithub.com/minae-mizumura-on-...rnal-internet/ .
    To sit alone in the lamplight with a book spread out before you, and hold intimate converse with men of unseen generations, such is a pleasure beyond compare.
    Yoshida Kenko

  14. #254

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisIsland View Post
    Incorrect, again. You know, wikipedia might not be the most reliable source...
    Lol. Indeed. I'm glad so much comedy gold is being spun in this thread, especially since the mini-rant above focused on the media personality and philosophy of the author instead of any of the four novels mentioned. Chill, dude bro. Your hormones are showing.

    Yoko Tawada reads far better in Japanese (and, as I've read elsewhere, German) than in English. Also, it seems like our resident angry young man has only read Ogawa's extremely limited output in English translation (and I highly suspect he has even read her at all if he compares her to Ryu Murakami. Actually, given his unnuanced opinions ever since he joined or re-joined the forum, I suspect he hasn't read or understood Ryu Murakami either. Torture fetishizers they ain't). In any case, I'd put Mizumura, Ogawa, and Tawada (and Ryu Murakami) way above Murakami with regard to literary talent. Haruki Murakami is enjoyable, sure, but I wouldn't call him a great writer. Influential, yeah, just like Stephen King.
    Last edited by Uemarasan; 13-Aug-2017 at 07:19.

  15. #255

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    There's much wrong in the post. One thing you've overlook is a central, salient issue that Mizumura expands in Nihongo Horobiru -- how some of the brightest stars of Japanese literature all attended Todai and all studied foreign literature (like Soseki, Aktugawa, Tanizaki, Ogai) and how they took all of these influences and used, in her opinion, the greatness of the Japanese language to produce great literature. That's why she did the same with Wuthering Heights...

    Also, you've read one book by Ogawa last time I checked. She's written dozens of books. Love how you're generalizing her works based on the one novel you read. You don't really know contemporary Japanese literature because you 1) don't read Japanese and 2) don't read any language other than English. A lot is being written, especially by female authors. Calling Tawada a "meh" who's loved by Germans is a risible reduction. Tanikawa has won international awards... he won the "Chinese nobel of poetry" in 2011. He may not be making international waves, as you say, but I'd chalk that up to poetry tending not to be read by great swaths of people. Ironically, in Japan poetry is frequently read yet there's a great lacuna between any modern Japanese poetry getting translated in the rest of the world. Oe was barely known before the Nobel. That's what great about it when it doesn't have to follow your guidelines. Deserving authors who maybe have only won, heaven forfend!, national awards from their peripheral countries can get the readership they deserve.

    Uemarasan, his generalization makes sense when I tell you the only book he's read of hers is ホテル・アイリス, which is even more hilarious because it's not really at all like an R Murakami novel.

    Marba, thanks. It's funny how a lot of people tend to overlook the literature from Academy members. I've read maybe five authors? My library has Kains memoarer and Sju vise mästare om kärlek. Maybe I'll check them both out next week.

    Ellis, what a pic. One could say it's... BLINDING.
    Last edited by Ater, Lividus, Ruber, & V; 13-Aug-2017 at 07:26.

  16. #256

    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Thanks, ALR&V! That certainly clears things up.

    You and nagisa are the posters here with a far better understanding of Japanese culture and literature, so I'm glad you're around as thoughtful counterpoints. I'd defer to you guys instead. For one thing, you aren't plagued by the American (Western?) stereotype that there is some kind of "torture fetishization" in Japanese culture. Okay, if you only watch, read, and experience a specific, nonmainstream genre of Japanese culture that is popular among certain subcultures in the West. It also enjoys a high rate of translation and exposure because, ah well, those "weird and inscrutable Japanese".

    Personally, it's too bad that Yuko Tsushima died last year. She was still much too young and so talented.

    Cleanthess, thank you for suggesting Charov/Sharov! He definitely sounds like a writer right up my alley.
    Last edited by Uemarasan; 13-Aug-2017 at 08:07.

  17. #257
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ater, Lividus, Ruber, & V View Post

    Ellis, what a pic. One could say it's... BLINDING.
    I like the pic, as well. It gives me a sense of NOSTALGIA.

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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Isahoinp View Post

    Haruki Murakami is likely Japan's only realistic Nobel candidate and will be for decades to come.

    Yoko Ogawa is simplistic and many of her works are either cheesy romances or fall into the craze of Japanese torture fetishization (Ryu Murakami as well).
    Sweeping statements such as these make it pretty clear which part of your anatomy you're speaking from.

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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanthess View Post
    Next stop, Russia. There are 3 Russian writers I'd love to win the Nobel:

    Ludmila Ulitskaya
    A good entry point into Ulitskaya's deep, human, highly readable books would be her Sonechka: A Novella and Stories; to read The Queen of Spades or Sonechka is to be enthralled.

    Victor Pelevin, a master fictionist (in the Borges sense) bordering on the sci-fi and other kinds of genre fiction (kinda like that other genius, Volodine), Pelevin is nonetheless a true original. Two good entry points into his work would be The Life of Insects and The Numbers, books that must be read to be believed. (I know, I know, some of you may prefer Vladimir Sorokin and his Ice Trilogy over Pelevin if a Russian fantasist were to win the Nobel) .

    Vladimir Charov/Sharov a highly original writer mixing the novel of ideas with fairytales and religion (would anybody please translate Sharov's Возвращение в Египет/Retour en Égypte, winner of the 2014 Russian Booker prize or Воскрешение Лазаря/The Resurrection of Lazarus?). His novels Les Répétitions/The Rehearsals and Before and During are easily among the best books I've read this decade, genre defying, intellectually defiant, absolutely amazing books.
    Glad you're back for a visit, Cleanthess! Thanks for the heads up on Sharov, a writer I had never heard of prior to your post. I've also not read Ulitskaya and Pelevin, but I do have copies of The Funeral Party and Oman Ra on the shelf. What do you think about those novels as starting points for these two authors?

    Also, speaking of potential Russian Nobel winners, what do you think about Ludmilla Petrushevskaya's chances?

  20. #260
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    Default Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2017 Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Uemarasan View Post
    Two female authors who I think deserve the prize at some point:

    Marie NDiaye

    Still young at 50 but quite prolific. I thought Ladivine was wonderful. Her strength as a writer doesn't lie in any extraordinary feats of prose but rather the construction of narrative, so she could be overlooked in favor of stylists such as Krasznahorkai whenever potential winners are discussed? Quite similar to Conde in this regard.

    Interestingly enough, she's co-written a screenplay with Claire Denis, and if the Academy wanted to make another unconventional choice and award a screenwriter, I'd say Denis belongs among the handful of great screenwriters, along with Apichatpong Weerasethakul.
    But as you says she's only 50! An she's french. So after 2000, 2008 and 2014, I don't see a french author winning the Nobel before the next 15 years...
    Deus ex machina

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