Philip Roth

[SlowRain]

I'd say I'm not sympathetic to any kind of narcissism or vanity, no matter what the age. However, I certainly agree when you say the novel is about the need to be the object of contemplation, as that partly comes into play with Consuela and her breasts, but also with Kepesh and his need to be seen as a desirable lover and cultured intellectual. Is Kepesh a Roth alter-ego for things too dark to use Nathan Zuckerman?

What were some sympathetic sides to Kepesh that make you not loathe him like I do?

[Broodrooster]

Seconded, Scott.

[beelzebubbles]

I don’t think there is a Kepesh novel as dark as any of those murder and marriage novels in which Zuckerman plays the role of both Chandler's and Conrad’s Marlow. Poor Zuckerman, Roth grabs a hold of him and shakes him like a terrier with a rat. Zuckerbaby is the anti-Kepesh. He is the heart to Kepesh's head. His is the ear with the glass at the wall as opposed to the appreciative eye. He plunges in where Kepesh tries to employ technique and reserve. He is embroiled with life, with art and with women. He is just a boy who can't say no. And when he has exhausted all his yeses, he delves deeper into the darkness. He's fearful. He's crazed. He's relentless. He is a terrible snoop.

Now I always thought, that despite everything one may dislike about Kepesh, he is a generous teacher and his appreciation for art is neither sham nor show but one of the real and deep things about him. If you want a more sympathetic portrait of David try The Professor of Desire. Though I can't understand having no sympathy for vanity or narcissism. Don't we all want to be attractive and appreciated?

I don't think that it is David's vanity that is the only thing that puts the reader off. It is that he is calculating and manipulative that rubs the reader the wrong way. And I think that is the intended effect. The sharing of the art books--'come up and see my etchings, my dear'--the physical description--he is a Wildean fop--these things are expressly done to make him ridiculous. His machinations are exposed in The Dying Animal and we are not intended to like him but to see him fully. Such pitiless exposure is enough to make me pity him.

Well, I think you can see by the way that the thats and its are piling up on each other in my rhetoric that I am tired. So goodnight.

[SlowRain]

I think vanity and narcissism are negative characteristics. They are not simply wanting to be attractive and appreciated, they are excessive in that pursuit. Kepesh is vain.

I agree with your description of his manipulation of his female students, however I don't pity him for it in the least. I despise him.

I think he is snobbish. Not overtly, because he has to maintain the appearance of being open minded, but is disdainful of things he views as inferior rather than simply appreciating things that he views to be fine. As a critic, he can say that he doesn't like something and point out what he views to be its shortcomings, but his manner is much too condescending.

Zuckerman, on the other hand, is actually quite a mild and humble person.

All of this is why I wonder if Zuckerman is Roth's nice cop and Kepesh is his bad cop. Roth seems to have staked his reputation on Zuckerman and, as such, uses Zuckerman to portray his own gentle ideas. However, I think Roth gets peeved sometimes, and so he uses Kepesh to insulate himself from the ideas--but they're still his true feelings. Is that a possibility?

[beelzebubbles]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

All of this is why I wonder if Zuckerman is Roth's nice cop and Kepesh is his bad cop. Roth seems to have staked his reputation on Zuckerman and, as such, uses Zuckerman to portray his own gentle ideas. However, I think Roth gets peeved sometimes, and so he uses Kepesh to insulate himself from the ideas--but they're still his true feelings. Is that a possibility?

I don't know, babe. I never met the man.

You are right that Zuckerman and Kepesh stories deal with different themes but the Zuckerman stories are far more fraught than the Kepesh stories.

I agree Zuckerman is likable and Kepesh is not, but mild and humble? I don't think so. He has a pretty fair, possibly even inflated, notion of his worth as a writer. He chases old men around graveyards threatening their lives. Is that humble or mild? I am not saying Zuckerman is an egoist and I acknowledge that his shenanigans are often a response to stress but he is not a boy scout to Kepesh's satyr. He is artist to Kepesh's critic.

But Zuckerman's more pleasant personality aside, the stories he is involved in and creates are far darker than Kepesh's. The three later novels that are often called the American trilogy are ostensibly the true stories of the people he knows but Zuckerman is hardly a reliable narrator. Besides being a terrible snoop, he is an ardent fabulist. Look at the life he creates for Amy Bellette in The Ghostwriter. It's not enough that she is a charming, European Jewess lucky to be alive after the Holocaust. She has to be Anne Frank returned from the dead...literally. She has to be Kafka's little sister, metaphorically.

I think not liking the Kepesh of The Dying Animal is the point of the exercise to some extent. Still he is a good appreciator. Consuela doesn't go to anyone else when she is losing her breasts. She goes to him. Someone she hasn't seen in quite a while. Does she love him? I don't think so. I think she is going to the man who will understand her loss.

[saliotthomas]

I'm past the middle of Americain Pastoral(1997) and i'd bet my underwear that Yasmina Khadra read it a few time before writing The attack(2005).
I shall not talk of plagierism, oh no, please no, but the similitudes are numerous, A girls (for Khadra a woman) put a bomb in a public place, a post(Roth) a restaurant full of kids(Khadra) both come out of the blue to there relatives, parents (Roth) husband (Khadra).
The theme of well managed social integration is strong and essencial, Imigrant Jews in America(Roth), Arabe palestinian in Israel(Khadra) with upperclass status.
It does not make Khadra novel less good but it remove the novelty and originality.

[Bjorn]

American Pastoral has one of the most powerful endings I've ever read.

Make sure to put on Dylan's "Tears of Rage" afterwards.

[shempenman]

And if you haven't by now, you've still got the pleasure of discovering
Portnoy's Complaint

Originally Posted by Heteronym

I love Roth's novels, after reading seven of them I have yet to meet a disappointment. The Anatomy Lesson, Operation Shylock, Sabbath's Theater, American Pastoral, I Married a Communist, The Human Stain, The Plot Against America, what an amazing body of work!

Operation Shylock remains one of the funniest novels I've ever read, an absurd romp through fake identities, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, cultural criticism (there's a character in the novel, George Siad, who's a caricature of Edward Said), the responsibility of writers to the world they live in.

For me Roth is the best American writer alive today: he has a beautiful prose, a polished Henry James style, and his characters are all unforgettable.

[beelzebubbles]

Originally Posted by saliotthomas

I'm past the middle of Americain Pastoral(1997) and i'd bet my underwear that Yasmina Khadra read it a few time before writing The attack(2005).
I shall not talk of plagierism, oh no, please no, but the similitudes are numerous, A girls (for Khadra a woman) put a bomb in a public place, a post(Roth) a restaurant full of kids(Khadra) both come out of the blue to there relatives, parents (Roth) husband (Khadra).
The theme of well managed social integration is strong and essencial, Imigrant Jews in America(Roth), Arabe palestinian in Israel(Khadra) with upperclass status.
It does not make Khadra novel less good but it remove the novelty and originality.

Don't you think a Palestinian could come up with a bombing story without being influenced by an American?

If you work in the Electra angle, children as the cause of the dissolution of a marriage and the 'golden boy' past of a Swede Levov when compared with the troubled youth of a Merry Levov, then you might have a case.

[beelzebubbles]

Originally Posted by Bjorn

American Pastoral has one of the most powerful endings I've ever read.

Make sure to put on Dylan's "Tears of Rage" afterwards.

Bjorn, I am going to nickname you The Soundtrack.

[saliotthomas]

Originally Posted by beelzebubbles

Don't you think a Palestinian could come up with a bombing story without being influenced by an American?

If you work in the Electra angle, children as the cause of the dissolution of a marriage and the 'golden boy' past of a Swede Levov when compared with the troubled youth of a Merry Levov, then you might have a case.

Yasmina Khadra is Algerian Janet, and it was mostly the bombing in relation to integration of foreigner i referred to. In both novel it is interesting that it come from successfully socialy integrate persons, segond generation if you like (even integration of the enemi in Khadra).
But mostly,i realize that i always link novel when i read, and often it is far fletch.(Chronic city and Foucault pendulum is proof enough)

[beelzebubbles]

I knew I would get her nationality wrong.

Talk about far-fetched, right now I am wondering if there is any relationship between Hawthorne's Young Goodmen Brown and The Woman in the Dunes.

[saliotthomas]

Originally Posted by beelzebubbles

I knew I would get her nationality wrong.

It's a man.

[beelzebubbles]

D'oh! I think I have reached my doofus quotient for the day. Of course this does not discount my initial rebuttal.

*Oh, if only!*

[sirena]

Does anybody know where I could find the novel "Dying animal" on Internet for free on-line reading?
Thanks in advance.

[Stewart]

Originally Posted by sirena

Does anybody know where I could find the novel "Dying animal" on Internet for free on-line reading?

I wouldn't have thought so. It's under copyright.

[SlowRain]

Originally Posted by Stewart

I wouldn't have thought so. It's under copyright.

But that's not what the question was really asking.

[Mirabell]

Originally Posted by sirena

Does anybody know where I could find the novel "Dying animal" on Internet for free on-line reading?
Thanks in advance.

um. YOu could google the author, the book, and the word "torrent" and you might find, um, a torrent.

you might need one of these to use it.

Comparison of BitTorrent clients - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[DB Cooper]

I havent yet been motivated to buy a Phillip Roth book. Am I missing out?

[SlowRain]

Originally Posted by DB Cooper

I havent yet been motivated to buy a Phillip Roth book. Am I missing out?

You're missing out on The Human Stain.

So far, I've read The Human Stain, The Plot Against America, American Pastoral and The Dying Animal, in that order. I'd say the first two were an excellent balance of character, narrative, themes, and plot; they were engaging and entertaining. The last two were certainly lighter on plot and, with American Pastoral, a bit of a rant/whinge. I enjoyed them less. American Pastoral is still a good novel, but The Dying Animal disappointed me a bit.