Past Good Nobel Winners Who Wouldn't Have Won Today

Hamishe22

Well-known member
I guess we have lots of debates about which Nobel laureates haven't stood the test of time. My question is a bit different. Which laureate has stood the test, and is a great deserving writer, but you still think they wouldn't have won if they were alive today. Good people who are no longer in Nobel vogue.

Reading Sinclair Lewis made me think of this. He's a top notch writer and I am loving him, but I really don't think that such blunt political satire would have a chance today.
 
Saul Bellow is the first name that comes to mind. Completely deserving in a literary way, in my opinion, but very conservative, skeptical about indigenous literatures, not so great in his personal dealings with women (five marriages, four divorces), although perhaps not in outright MeToo territory. I just don’t think that any prize-giving body today would find him appealing.

Even though I occupy similar political territory in some ways, I don’t find Bellow personally attractive. My sense is that he was a shitty person, possibly worse than the more theatrical Mailer, although I esteem both as writers.
 
Hemingway

Hamsun

T.S. Eliot

Gide

I assume Gide is out because of his pederasty, but he was scarcely alone in that predilection, in French literature, or in global literature generally. It is a big part of “gay history”, anyone who thinks otherwise is being ahistorical. Just because we have framed this issue in the most heinous way possible today, does not mean that was always the case. Gide himself would encourage us to look back to the ancient Greeks…
 

Ben Jackson

Well-known member
This is an interesting thread.

I don't know how to answer this question, to be honest. It's a very difficult question. I have to think about this very well before I make a response.
 

Liam

Administrator
Stylistically, many of the past winners would not stand a chance today for not being "unique" enough, I don't think. But in terms of personal character and opinion, if Handke is anything to go by, I think it is safe to say that the academy doesn't give a flying f*ck about what a certain author "represents" as long as they produce quality work, ?‍♂️
 
I assume Gide is out because of his pederasty, but he was scarcely alone in that predilection, in French literature, or in global literature generally. It is a big part of “gay history”, anyone who thinks otherwise is being ahistorical. Just because we have framed this issue in the most heinous way possible today, does not mean that was always the case. Gide himself would encourage us to look back to the ancient Greeks…
Just for the sake of it, it's important to point out that men having sex with young women is clearly a big part of "straight history". For hundreds (actually thousands) of years it wasn't called anything other than "marriage", and for everything but a most recent sliver of time men couldn't be convicted of raping somebody considered their wife no matter the age.

But somehow that whole story seems to be forgotten because there is a history of men having sex with boys, too.

As one of my favourite drag queens would say, "Look over there!"
 
Just for the sake of it, it's important to point out that men having sex with young women is clearly a big part of "straight history". For hundreds (actually thousands) of years it wasn't called anything other than "marriage", and for everything but a most recent sliver of time men couldn't be convicted of raping somebody considered their wife no matter the age.

But somehow that whole story seems to be forgotten because there is a history of men having sex with boys, too.

As one of my favourite drag queens would say, "Look over there!"

Certainly so. I got into a tussle with someone I won’t name, over Hugh Edwards’ excellent short novel All Night at Mr. Stanyhurst’s (1933), which is set in the early 19th Century and whose protagonist has a 16-year-old mistress (who began her romantic-sexual life earlier, at age 14). My correspondent felt that the girl’s age made the novel “creepy”. Well, people gonna react how they’re gonna react, but I pointed out rather forcefully to him that marriage at those ages was completely unexceptional at the time, lifespans were shorter, “adolescence” didn’t exist, and in essence it was no BFD.

These days, under-reaction to certain things is practically a crime in itself. So in his eyes, by liking this book, I was nearly guilty of child rape myself. I don’t talk to this rather well-known fellow anymore, although I still admire his accomplishments.

I’m not politically correct about a LOT of things, in the sense that I just don’t get too worked up most of the time. And if early on I rejected the Roman Catholic Church’s strictures on sex, including the ways we think and talk about it, I’m certainly not going to turn around and accept PROGRESSIVES’ strictures! I mean, PLEASE.

My thinking in these areas is pretty close to Camille Paglia’s, and is more of a free-wheeling Seventies attitude. I’m not trying to shock people, but I don’t care if I do.
 
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^ Would not quibble with that. Plenty of suffering in all systems at all times.

People do deal. I think we have over-defined too many things as debilitatingly traumatic, when they are just consequences of getting on with life. We live today in what I think of as a very melodramatic culture. A dash of Stoicism might not be amiss.
 
And lest anyone think I am being insensitive: I suffer from depression and anxiety, I have been medicated for a long time and will be for the rest of my life, I have been through therapy, and I am a suicide survivor (my ex). So I am very grateful for modern tools.

But it was partly through my therapy that I learned the value of Stoicism, of learning to deal, of not melodramatizing.

Having excessively rosy expectations of life (“Generation Snowflake”) CONTRIBUTES to eventual depression and anxiety. (Anything short of Camelot amounted to a crushing disappointment for my ex, so unsurprisingly, he took to drugs in a major way.)

I think we do adolescents a disservice if we don’t make it clear to them that life is going to be rough, that things are going to happen around them and to them that they are REALLY not going to like, and that the point is to survive all that and thrive as much as possible.
 
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And lest anyone think I am being insensitive: I suffer from depression and anxiety, I have been medicated for a long time and will be for the rest of my life, I have been through therapy, and I am a suicide survivor (my ex). So I am very grateful for modern tools.

But it was partly through my therapy that I learned the value of Stoicism, of learning to deal, of not melodramatizing.

Having excessively rosy expectations of life (“Generation Snowflake”) CONTRIBUTES to eventual depression and anxiety. (Anything short of Camelot amounted to a crushing disappointment for my ex, so unsurprisingly, he took to drugs in a major way.)

I think we do adolescents a disservice if we don’t make it clear to them that life is going to be rough, that things are going to happen around them and to them that they are REALLY not going to like, and that the point is to survive all that and thrive as much as possible.
....

And to work towards making it better, perhaps?

I appreciate you sharing what you have shared. I think you're missing some of the mark - maybe even most of it. Hell, back in my academic days I would be encouraging you to read some Gramsci or other works outlining the oppressive power of hegemonic thinking. Now I would just recommend some novels by Nadine Gordimer, poetry by Pablo Neruda, essays by Milosz, and maybe even Doris Lessing's earlier novels.

Basically, anything that speaks to hope and the importance of community.
 
I don’t want to be the focus here. ? I just naturally mix autobiographical musings and personal anecdotes into my writing. Probably got a little too “naked” in this instance, left myself wide open.

And of course, if something irks me I should probably not respond at all, but being lectured at as if I don’t understand “hegemonic thinking”, after decades of teaching history, philosophy, and the social sciences, well… ?

Also, it is just possible that trying to one-up someone who is talking about his ex’s suicide is not cool.

I have an Irish(-American) temper, flares up quickly into “bar fights”, generally forgotten in a couple of days.
 
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Ben Jackson

Well-known member
And lest anyone think I am being insensitive: I suffer from depression and anxiety, I have been medicated for a long time and will be for the rest of my life, I have been through therapy, and I am a suicide survivor (my ex). So I am very grateful for modern tools.

But it was partly through my therapy that I learned the value of Stoicism, of learning to deal, of not melodramatizing.

Having excessively rosy expectations of life (“Generation Snowflake”) CONTRIBUTES to eventual depression and anxiety. (Anything short of Camelot amounted to a crushing disappointment for my ex, so unsurprisingly, he took to drugs in a major way.)

I think we do adolescents a disservice if we don’t make it clear to them that life is going to be rough, that things are going to happen around them and to them that they are REALLY not going to like, and that the point is to survive all that and thrive as much as possible.

No, I don't think you're making a mistake. Sharing personal experiences only make people aware that such experiences exist and isn't fallacy. People learning from experiences of the other is the only way the world'll be better and free from errors. Love your experiences, or autobiographical musings as you call them, you shared.
 

nagisa

Spiky member
"I'm not POLITICALLY CORRECT, not like 'GENERATION SNOWFLAKE'!!"

*mildest criticism*

"How dare you! So condescending! I shall forthwith leave this space!"

Fascinating.
 
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