‘Poetic’ novels

[JCamilo]

I don't think so.
Morte e Vida: Severina is an epic poetry (or drama in verses) and, in my opinion, doesn't sound like a poetic novel.

I never said it was a poetic novel. Several works mentioned in this thread fit more in the notion of narrative poems (which Morte e Vida, as a Dramatic Poem, an Auto is) and not the novel format. Epic poetry is not the same as drama in verses either and calling it epic is as suited as calling it a romance, elements of both are find in Cabral poem, perhaps more misleading since it does intend to follow suit with the epic portuguese tradition and more popular poetry, since Autos arent exactly epic poetry, but a medieval, popular and often comical kind of work. Unless you are using epic about the length of the poem, which is fine i guess.

It sounds like a proleratian play and is the answer for Orfeu da Conceição (Black Orpheu) by Vinicius de Moraes (which adapted into a film and won the Oscar in 1960).
But I can see Sousândrade's O Guesa (The Guesa) as a proto-modern/avant-garde poetic novel, specially its Canto X which was written in 1878 and was very advanced for that period.
The Canto X was renamed as Hell in Wallstreet by de Campos brothers in 1962 and sounds like a early post-modern novel (with non-sense dialogues and proto-stream of consciousness) and proto-dadaist poetry.

There is Cobra Norato by Raul Bopp which could be classified as a poetic novel too, but in my opnion it is an epic poetry in free verses.

The problem about the Campos brothers is that sometimes even their poetry looks not like poetry

What do you think about Del Picchia? He mixed genres so much between prose, drama and lyrical verses that he may be here. Or at least as a Oscar Wilde wannabe?

And Liam, does Wilde fit in for you? He did seems like a Lazy stylist, sometimes trying hard to be witty and poetic in platitudes?

Lol, to each their own. I didn’t mind the stiffness and liked the compactness, it reminded me of some of the old Edda poems I’ve read. I guess I enjoyed it because Tolkien avoided a more modern style like you mention Morris using.

I think he sometimes sounded more stiff than the Eddas

Morris and all those raphaelits have a thing for style. Blablaaabla, just blabla. I guess they get more interesting when we consider they are insisting in this kind of poetry when the french are making it impossible to be narrative

Now i remember a letter from Gorki to Tchekov. In this letter, Gorki was saying Tchekov style was so poetic and natural that would destroy all realism.

 

[Benny Profane]

I never said it was a poetic novel. Several works mentioned in this thread fit more in the notion of narrative poems (which Morte e Vida, as a Dramatic Poem, an Auto is) and not the novel format. Epic poetry is not the same as drama in verses either and calling it epic is as suited as calling it a romance, elements of both are find in Cabral poem, perhaps more misleading since it does intend to follow suit with the epic portuguese tradition and more popular poetry, since Autos arent exactly epic poetry, but a medieval, popular and often comical kind of work. Unless you are using epic about the length of the poem, which is fine i guess.

Yep. I agree, fellow! Morte e Vida Severina is a mixture of auto (in the same way of Gil Vicente), drama in verses and cordel.
Would be an epic poetry, in my opinion, because is a kind of Caramuru (by Santa Rita Durão) from Sertão.

The problem about the Campos brothers is that sometimes even their poetry looks not like poetry

What do you think about Del Picchia? He mixed genres so much between prose, drama and lyrical verses that he may be here. Or at least as a Oscar Wilde wannabe?

And the translations of Campos brothers, sometimes, don't seem translations.
Because of that stupidy controversy of 90's, Bruno Tolentino started the "olavismo" in our country!
If both accepted the critics (who were correct, in my opinion), Olavo de Carvalho would be a crazy guru and we wouldn't mind about him.
To think that all these strifes and stupid polarization in our country started with a controversy of translations... Tsc, Tsc...

Menotti Del Picchia, Coelho Netto, Júlia de Almeida and Guilherme de Almeida are examples of persons who were overshadowed by another ungifted writers such as Mário de Andrade (the worst brazilian writer of 20th century), Cassiano Ricardo, Sérgio Milliet (a brilliant translator and essayist, but a bad poet) and Oswald de Andrade (he was an erudit, but his poetries doesn't sound good).

 

[JCamilo]

Yep. I agree, fellow! Morte e Vida Severina is a mixture of auto (in the same way of Gil Vicente), drama in verses and cordel.
Would be an epic poetry, in my opinion, because is a kind of Caramuru (by Santa Rita Durão) from Sertão.

I am not sure if Severino would fit as an epic protagonist, but then, the class/social issue he represents, I think more than a national ideal, makes this a bit impossible. He is always undermined, a bit of reversal of epic (a cipe), but then it is moderm poetry, eschewing genres is part of the busines.

And the translations of Campos brothers, sometimes, don't seem translations.
Because of that stupidy controversy of 90's, Bruno Tolentino started the "olavismo" in our country!
If both accepted the critics (who were correct, in my opinion), Olavo de Carvalho would be a crazy guru and we wouldn't mind about him.
To think that all these strifes and stupid polarization in your country started with a controversy of translations... Tsc, Tsc...

I would mind him

He kept using my grandfather to justify his insanity and anti-marxist pseudointelectual conservadorism. Early on 90's i had to shrug off black books of communism, astral maps and anti-academicism...

Menotti Del Picchia, Coelho Netto, Júlia de Almeida and Guilherme de Almeida are examples of persons who were overshadowed by another ungifted writers such as Mário de Andrade (the worst brazilian writer of 20th century), Cassiano Ricardo, Sérgio Milliet (a brilliant translator and essayist, but a bad poet) and Oswald de Andrade (he was an erudit, but his poetries doesn't sound good).

I think Oswald interesting as persona, kind like Voltaires and Wildes. His works, like Pau-Brasil lack some unity (they lack narrative after all) and seem like a collection of witty satires. Would be a meme king. Apart some of those verses or small poems can be small jewells of comic poetry (and I dont if you saw, 2 years ago a review on a book caused some spark here in Belo Horizonte because suggested poets have no sense of humor), but all together can be really uneeven in quality. They are of course also shadowed by Drummonds, Bandeiras and the others who are way better poets indeed.

About Mário, you are siding with the 1922 Controversy?

 

[Leseratte]

Yep. I agree, fellow! Morte e Vida Severina is a mixture of auto (in the same way of Gil Vicente), drama in verses and cordel.
Would be an epic poetry, in my opinion, because is a kind of Caramuru (by Santa Rita Durão) from Sertão.





Menotti Del Picchia, Coelho Netto, Júlia de Almeida and Guilherme de Almeida are examples of persons who were overshadowed by another ungifted writers such as Mário de Andrade (the worst brazilian writer of 20th century), Cassiano Ricardo, Sérgio Milliet (a brilliant translator and essayist, but a bad poet) and Oswald de Andrade (he was an erudit, but his poetries doesn't sound good).

Ai, Benny, let me disagree with you: Mário de Andrade, the worst Brazilian writer of the 20 C !? Why do you think that?

And I also don´t know what that Olavo de Carvalho has to do with The Guesa. I must have missed something. Did he read it at all?

Wikipedia page (English) on Mário de Andrade:

Mário de Andrade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Benny Profane]

I am not sure if Severino would fit as an epic protagonist, but then, the class/social issue he represents, I think more than a national ideal, makes this a bit impossible. He is always undermined, a bit of reversal of epic (a cipe), but then it is moderm poetry, eschewing genres is part of the busines.

It doesn't seem it, but Severino is an example of anti-hero who sings an anti-epic poetry about hunger, poverty and miserability.
Although an illiterate and uneducated person, he sings the reality of Brazil on 20th with deep socioeconomics analysis (the conjuncture is an economic boom in big cities and poverty in backlands).
I know it's a controversy range, but, in my opinion, I can see Morte e Vida Severina as an epic modernist poetry like Omeros (by Walcott).

I would mind him

He kept using my grandfather to justify his insanity and anti-marxist pseudointelectual conservadorism. Early on 90's i had to shrug off black books of communism, astral maps and anti-academicism...

?
If you greatfather was who I'm thinking off, he was the wonderful literary critic (with Néston Victor) in our country on 20th century and he is my reference.
Don't be ashamed if this brazilian Jim Jones and quack uses the name of your grandpa.
I didn't know him, but he was a true intelectual (a gentleman and an erudite who wrote about a thousand of subjects - from Literature to Economics).

I think Oswald interesting as persona, kind like Voltaires and Wildes. His works, like Pau-Brasil lack some unity (they lack narrative after all) and seem like a collection of witty satires. Would be a meme king. Apart some of those verses or small poems can be small jewells of comic poetry (and I dont if you saw, 2 years ago a review on a book caused some spark here in Belo Horizonte because suggested poets have no sense of humor), but all together can be really uneeven in quality. They are of course also shadowed by Drummonds, Bandeiras and the others who are way better poets indeed.

About Mário, you are siding with the 1922 Controversy?

Oswald de Andrade knew to write, although for fads his poetry sounded weird.

The modern poetry from Minas Gerais (early Alphonsus de Guimaraens, Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Lúcio Cardoso and lately Murilo Mendes and after Clube da Esquina, Adélia Prado, Affonso de Sant'anna and others) ought to be more known in our country, because there were brilliant poets there.

Well, I have a biased view about 1922:
It was necessary in our country (it was useful for the second - Regionalism - and third wave - Intimist/Confessional - of Modernism), but the brazilian Modernism shan't be imposed by a burgueois group of provincial guys who had money to trip to Paris and Rome (and they called themselves as erudite and open mind guys). Many of them copied Guillaume Apollinaire and Alphonse Daudet and were not original.
Not to mention that a classic fascist (Marinetti) and sympathizers of fascim and eugenics (Paulo Prado and Renato Kehl) were the supporters of 1922.
I find it shameful Manuel Bandeira, Jorge de Lima and Guilherme de Almeida have had involvement with this group of spoiled and pseudo-intelectualls people.

Ai, Benny, let me disagree with you: Mário de Andrade, the worst Brazilian writer of the 20 C !? Why do you think that?

It's simple! Because he didn't know to write (even an simple essay about The Modernist Week).
Macunaíma is the worst book of 20th century in Brazil, in my opinion.
It is empty, wrong (to the prologue to the epilogue) and blured by biased view.
It is worse than The Alchemist (by Paulo Coelho) and Brejal dos Guajas (by José Sarney - our former President).

And I also don´t know what that Olavo de Carvalho has to do with The Guesa. I must have missed something. Did he read it at all?

Digressions, dear!
The Guesa >>> Campos Brothers (who rediscovered The Guesa) >>>>> Controversy between Campos Brothers and Bruno Tolentino on 90's >>>>> Olavo de Carvalho and "olavismo".

I'm going to finnish it because I don't want to annoy the Moderation Staff. LOL!

 

[JCamilo]

?
If you grandpa was who I'm thinking off, he was the wonderful literary critic (with Néston Victor) in our country on 20th century and he is my reference.

No, no. My greatfather is not a national name, João Camillo de Olivera Torres. Olavo uses him due to his conservative views reggarding religion and politics (albeit my greatfather was a huge defender of Social SecurIty as a form of state action to promove social equality in terms very similar to programs like Bolsa Famìlia) and because my greatfather was Schop-Nietz side of philosophy. Those brain dead took the fact he was some sort of last monarchy defender and have promoted a revival of some of his ideas, ignoring how he always said state duty is to act and promote social and economic equality and even mentioning Marx as msitaken, never went on communist witch hunting, rather saying Marx would adapt his conclusions to the changes he helped to create.

Oswald de Andrade knew to write, although for fads his poetry sounded weird.

The modern poetry from Minas Gerais (lately Alphonsus de Guimaraens, Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Lúcio Cardoso and Murilo Mendes and after Clube da Esquina, Adélia Prado, Affonso de Sant'anna and others) ought to be more known in our country, because there were brilliant poets there.

Well, Drummond is our more popular poet. The one publishing house fights for the right.

Well, I have a biased view about 1922:
It was necessary in our country (it was useful for the second - Regionalism - and third wave - Intimist/Confessional - of Modernism), but the brazilian Modernism shan't be imposed by a burgueois group of provincial guys who had money to trip to Paris and Rome (and they called themselves as erudite and open mind guys).
Not to mention that a classic fascist (Marinetti) and sympathizers of fascim and eugenics (Paulo Prado and Renato Kehl) were the supporters of 1922.
I find it shameful Manuel Bandeira, Jorge de Lima and Guilherme de Almeida have had involvement with this group of spoiler and pseudo-intelectualls people.

There is a polemic about it this year. I think some articles in Folha that ended in a Drummond vs. Mário feud. Something how modernism was bigger than 22, etc.

About Eugenics, writers can be awful biologists. I recall, back on Monteiro Lobato polemics, how i went after some research about it. Our view of eugenics was more the urban "sanitazation"than based on genetics. All BS from positivism and social racism that looked like progress. In one of the papers say that the first brazilian invited to a eugenic meeting in europe gave a speech suggesting a version of the myth of the 3 races as a form to create a stronger brazilian race, in other words, the contrary of what those racists would like to hear, so no brazilian was invited again. It would be a great meme of the o brasileiro precisa ser estudado. After nazism that idea became harder to be accepted, so I would give Bandeira a nudge only.



It's simple! Because he didn't know to write (even an simple essay about The Modernist Week).
Macunaíma is the worst book of 20th century in Brazil, in my opinion.
It is empty, wrong (to the prologue to the epilogue) and blured by biased view.
It is worse than The Alchemist (by Paulo Coelho) and Brejal dos Guajas (by José Sarney - our former President).



Digressions, dear!
The Guesa >>> Campos Brothers (who rediscovered The Guesa) >>>>> Controversy between Campos Brothers and Bruno Tolentino on 90's >>>>> Olavo de Carvalho and "olavismo".

I'm going to finnish it because I don't annoy the Moderation Staff. LOL!
[/QUOTE]

 

[Benny Profane]

No, no. My greatfather is not a national name, João Camillo de Olivera Torres.

I thought your greatfather was José Guilherme Merquior. ?
And I'm interest to read something by João Camillo de Olivera Torres.

Well, Drummond is our more popular poet.

Just him. And we always forget Murilo Mendes, Lúcio Cardoso, Adélia Prado...
Minas Gerais saved our Literature on 20th century.

About Eugenics, writers can be awful biologists. I recall, back on Monteiro Lobato polemics, how i went after some research about it. Our view of eugenics was more the urban "sanitazation"than based on genetics. All BS from positivism and social racism that looked like progress. In one of the papers say that the first brazilian invited to a eugenic meeting in europe gave a speech suggesting a version of the myth of the 3 races as a form to create a stronger brazilian race, in other words, the contrary of what those racists would like to hear, so no brazilian was invited again. It would be a great meme of the o brasileiro precisa ser estudado. After nazism that idea became harder to be accepted, so I would give Bandeira a nudge only.

It's a complex question that I shouldn't have approached it. But Paulo Prado, Renato Kehl and Guilherme Barroso were the most racist persons who lived in our country and they were the supporters of 1922 (except Barroso who praised this movement later).
Paulo Prado and Renato Kehl were eugenicists and racists and support the Modern Week with some money.

 

[Leseratte]

Benny Profane said:
"It's simple! Because he didn't know to write (even an simple essay about The Modernist Week).
Macunaíma is the worst book of 20th century in Brazil, in my opinion.
It is empty, wrong (to the prologue to the epilogue) and blured by biased view.
It is worse than The Alchemist (by Paulo Coelho) and Brejal dos Guajas (by José Sarney - our former President)."

Dear Benny, of course you are entitled to your taste and your preferences, which you are reaffirming above. I myself have got valuable suggestions from you, and that´s why this opinion on Mário de Andrade astonishes me so. Allow me though, out of respect for the staff and the foreign members of this forum, to reaffirm my disagreement in regard to Mário de Andrade, who in my opinion (and not only in mine) is one of our greatest modernist writers. And this can be easily confirmed by his works, of which some were translated into other languages, as can be seen by his Wikipedia page.
That said, I am backing out of this discussion again.

 

[Leemo]

For "prose poetry", I can add Dreams and Stones by Magdalena Tulli to the list.

 

[Patrick Murtha]

I was thinking of creating a separate thread for Narrative Poetry / Novels in Verse, but since this thread exists and @hayden has cited titles such as William Carlos Williams’ Paterson and Michael Ondaatje’s The Collected Works of Billy the Kid, I’ll forego that. This is a particular interest of mine. It is also a form that will not die; every few years someone comes out with a fresh example, such as Vikram Seth’s The Golden Gate. Reviewers often seem to think that every such appearance is a novelty, but of course the form has a LONG history (which bleeds into the history of epic poetry generally).

I have lots of titles, but let’s start with…

Recommended w/Caveat: Peter Bowman, Beach Red. Very original experiential novel of the Pacific campaign in WWII, poised somewhere between stream-of-consciousness prose and free verse; Bowman disclaimed any intent of “poetry”.

The caveat is w/r/t the racial language directed against the enemy, common in wartime novels and films. I always recommend reading historically, but if you are acutely sensitive to such things, well I have mentioned it.

 

[Patrick Murtha]

MacKinlay Kantor (1904-1977) wrote the verse novel Glory for Me (1945) as the first step towards what would become the movie The Best Years of Our Lives. Very different they are; the novel is much grittier, and has been unfairly neglected.

 

[Patrick Murtha]

The verse novel was a little bit in the air in the US and UK between the Twenties and Forties - Joseph Moncure March, Jeremy Ingalls, Thomas Wood Stevens, Christopher La Farge, Alice Duer Miller, John Hargrave, Selden Rodman are other representative authors besides Bowman and Kantor.

Ross Lockridge wrote an epic poem, The Dream of the Flesh of Iron, before his prize-winning novel Raintree County, but it was never published and only exists in manuscript.

 

[Patrick Murtha]

There are 19th Century examples too, such as William Allingham’s Laurence Bloomfield in Ireland (1864).

 

[Patrick Murtha]

The Hungarian writer János Térey, who passed away in 2019 at the early age of 49, published at least three verse novels, Paulus, Protocol, and A Legkisebb Jégkorszak.

“In 2001, he published his verse novel, Paulus, which received several awards: the Palladium, Tisza, and Füst Milán Prizes, and the literary historian István Margócsy called the novel a great work that fulfilled the expectation and promise of a generation.”

https://hlo.hu/news/janos-terey-has-died.html

 

[Morbid Swither]

Raintree County

I love this novel. I received a copy from a mentor of sorts, an intellectual in my small rural community who was well known for his passionate devotion to the humanities until his passing in 2019. A historical theater here in Abilene, TX, The Paramount, would screen classic films once a month and this tradition thankfully has resumed, but immediately following Mr. Holladay's death, as if there were a caesura of silence, this practice halted. Mr. Holladay would introduce each film prior to the showing and he brought such a wealth of insight to each and everyone. His taste was wide ranging, but his fondness for Old Hollywood was pronounced, and he often cited Raintree County as his favorite. Nice to be reminded of it, friend!

 

[Patrick Murtha]

A “diary in verse” of 1945-46 by Selden Rodman, an easily forgotten poet, art critic, and cultural commentator.

 

[Morbid Swither]

The work that comes to mind first and foremost on this subject is Les Murray's Fredy Neptune. So wonderful!

 

[Patrick Murtha]

I love this novel. I received a copy from a mentor of sorts, an intellectual in my small rural community who was well known for his passionate devotion to the humanities until his passing in 2019. A historical theater here in Abilene, TX, The Paramount, would screen classic films once a month and this tradition thankfully has resumed, but immediately following Mr. Holladay's death, as if there were a caesura of silence, this practice halted. Mr. Holladay would introduce each film prior to the showing and he brought such a wealth of insight to each and everyone. His taste was wide ranging, but his fondness for Old Hollywood was pronounced, and he often cited Raintree County as his favorite. Nice to be reminded of it, friend!

It’s funny, I have a copy of Raintree County right here but have yet to crack it, despite loving John Leggett’s moving joint biography of Lockridge and Tom Heggen (author of Mister Roberts), Ross & Tom. Both men were suicides in the late Forties. Lockridge’s family has some beefs with Leggett’s interpretations, but that is not terribly significant; Leggett clearly presents them AS interpretations, not as the final word.

Lockridge’s son Larry has written his own biography of his father, Shade of the Raintree, which I should look at.

Lockridge and Heggen, both Houghton Mifflin authors, missed meeting each other, but when Heggen heard about Lockridge’s suicide, he cried the day out and drank himself into oblivion. This was one of several points in Leggett’s book where I cried, too.

 

[Patrick Murtha]

The work that comes to mind first and foremost on this subject is Les Murray's Fredy Neptune. So wonderful!

Ah, good call! The form has a very rich heritage.

 

[Patrick Murtha]

Recently Arrived: John Hargrave, Summer Time Ends (1935). I did NOT know this was coming with a dust jacket. I did not pay very much! First US edition, clearly marked (but this was a second issue jacket to capitalize on the praise). Binding is tight. 877 pages!