An Open Letter to the Forum

[titania7]

To my fellow list members:

It has been brought to my attention by someone whose opinion I very much respect, that I may sometimes demonstrate behavior at this forum that is overly aggressive and a little bit "pushy." I think it's incumbent upon me to clarify a few things.

In the first place, I don't ever intend to come across as pedantic, patronizing, or pretentious. There are many people who are members of this group who have more knowledge about literature than I do. I'm simply here to learn, just like everyone else.

My enthusiasm for books and authors is something I wouldn't change, however. And if I cannot maintain this enthusiasm without being "overpowering", then I suppose I'll have to continue to be "overpowering." If I recommend a book to someone and they've already read it, I do not mean it as an insult. I enjoy receiving recommendations from people in regard to books. Even if I've read them a few or several years ago, I appreciate the fact that they've put some thought into suggesting something I might like.

I know there are people here who do like me, and appreciate my posts. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't stay at this forum.

I do request, though, that, should I in any way offend one of the people I know on this list, that he or she send me a private message about it. The chances that I would ever offend anyone intentionally are extraordinarily remote. Thus, it really would be best to address the issue privately. Most of the time, I'm unaware that I've said something I shouldn't have, even though that probably seems difficult to believe.

The situation that has recently transpired on the "Classic vs Contemporary Literature" thread has taught me a few things about myself. Although I am the first to say that how we react to an event is more important than the event itself, I didn't keep this in mind in regard to the comments made by Beth. Beth was a personal friend of mine, and the fact that she made critical comments about me to the list, instead of telling me what she didn't like about my behavior personally, offended me deeply.

Please know, also, that my putting an author's name in parenthesis when I name one of his or her books is in no way meant to be condescending. I try to be as thorough as I can be in regard to my posts. However, the fact I put Nikolai Gogol's and Ivan Goncharov's name in parenthesis in a post to Beth on the 2009 thread was something she took umbrage at. Quite honestly, it would have been naive on my part to assume that everyone at this forum knew who wrote Dead Souls and Oblomov.
And even though my post was addressed to Beth, I'm certain several other people read it.

In summary, this letter is not an apology. I'm simply trying to answer any questions my fellow list members might have about my conduct. I like everyone at this forum, and I wouldn't offend any person here intentionally. I think perhaps I've been naive in thinking that others would share the level of passion I have for literature. Many of you probably do think I express myself too zealously and/or vehemently. This is really just an aspect of my personality. I'm an extremely enthusiastic person who is completely in love with life. I'm not merely passionate about literature--I'm passionate about life. If that's not how you feel, simply be indulgent towards me. Believe me, I've experienced a lot of pain in my 26 years; thus, it's not as if I'm still holding onto a plethora of illusions. But, in spite of all the disappointments, crises, and traumatic experiences I've been through, I still love life.

In that same spirit, I say: Carpe diem.

Thank you for reading this. Happy 2009!

Titania

 

[liehtzu]

Titania,

Most of us are too young to remember a time in which our societies weren't slanted to the point where everyone is ludicrously aware of, and ludicrously worried about, stepping on other peoples' toes. Everyone is supposed to walk on eggshells to avoid hurting other peoples' feelings, their poor little feelings, those poor sensitive thin-skinned souls. The real humor lies, of course, in those who always complaining about how wounded they are are usually the first to throw the barbs. And some people, even on literary forums, where you'd assume everyone is trying to be civilized, just feel the wearisome need to pick a fight, or to take something laughably insignificant personally. That said, at the end of the day a good scrape, a worthwhile little jousting session now and then, shouldn't be shied away from, either. The problem with thin skins is that there's no difference between a debate, or a friendly argument, and a personal attack.

I haven't checked the thread you refer to where your problems occurred, so I can't comment on that directly, and thus in no way are any of my comments meant to refer to specific people here. I'm writing this cold in response to your "open letter." Liam's observation that these problems you refer to seem to deserve nothing more than a big "So what?" is apt. You didn't need to write your open letter. If the people you're referring to seem unwilling to disagree with you reasonably then you should simply ignore them. Not everyone deserves a response - actually, I'm inclined to believe that most don't. If certain characters insist on being spiteful, or condescending, or getting their panties in a knot, they're obviously angry insignificant people who have nothing better to do. Again: ignore. The internet has become an unfortunate outlet for people with major personality problems. Sticks and stones... at the end of the day the worst they can do is hate you, and pound the keys harder while typing how much they hate you, and perhaps spray a little rage-induced spittle on the screen, all of which is more wounding to their computer for all that. I don't hate anyone, and nor do I stay awake at night worrying that someone may hate me. Life, you know, is too short.

Peace.

K

 

[titania7]

K (Liehtzu),

I appreciate the words of support. Thanks a bunch. I've never been very good at walking on egg-shells. I'm reminded of Flannery O'Connor, who was known for being less than timid about sharing her strong opinions. When she didn't like a book or an author, she was far from equivocal. Indeed, she called Carson McCullers book, Clock Without Hands, the "worst novel she had ever read."

Sometimes the fact I state my opinions clearly and honestly makes people unhappy. Merely saying that I prefer one type of literature over another shouldn't insult anyone. It simply has to do with my personal preference. Moreover, asking someone if a book they've read by a certain author has made an impact on them similiar to the impact a novel by Henry James (or a similar author) has made upon me is not meant as a personal attack. I don't know why it is that people choose to take things so personally, when their lives could be so much happier and simpler if they just "went with the flow" (so to speak).

You make an apt point about their being a difference between a friendly argument or debate and a personal attack. And yet, some people really cannot differentiate between the two. I didn't think this letter was absolutely mandatory for me to write, but, after being told that I'm "too intense" and that I can come across as "pushy," I felt I ought to clarify a few things.

Thanks for putting things into perspective for me, K. I'm going to go read some philosophy now. I simply must clear my head...

Peace,
Titania

 

[Colette Jones]

I do request, though, that, should I in any way offend one of the people I know on this list, that he or she send me a private message about it. The chances that I would ever offend anyone intentionally are extraordinarily remote. Thus, it really would be best to address the issue privately. Most of the time, I'm unaware that I've said something I shouldn't have, even though that probably seems difficult to believe.

I agree with this to an extent, and that is at the point it becomes a personal spat. However, I don't think you are being fair to whoever it is whose opinion you respect, the person who pointed something out to you which prompted you to create this thread. It now seems that you are agreeing with others that that person you respect should be ignored. I have no idea who that person is, but I do know that some of the things you said on the thread in question were inappropriate and should not have been said, and certainly not publicly (every thread is an open letter).

 

[titania7]

I agree with this to an extent, and that is at the point it becomes a personal spat. However, I don't think you are being fair to whoever it is whose opinion you respect, the person who pointed something out to you which prompted you to create this thread.

Actually, I think I'm being fair to the person I mentioned. She's very open-minded, and will completely understand that I'm continuing to mull over her remarks, analyzing and re-analyzing them. As I do so, I'm deciding whether or not I agree with all of them. I may well not. But I still consider her to be a friend and do respect her opinions. I can certainly respect someone AND disagree with them at the same time. I've spent the past hour discussing all this with my mother--who, by the way, pulls no punches when it comes to critiquing my behavior.

We--she and I--think that, aside from the posts in which I addressed Beth harshly, I haven't been overly aggressive. I am an intense person, but I make no apologies about that. Why should I? My intensity is part of who I am. If you cannot accept that, you cannot accept me (which is fine, but must we get so personal?)

Also, both Liam and Liehtzu know me better than the person who initially sent me a message regarding my conduct at the forum. Thus, I feel they would be able to give a more viable opinion about me.

It now seems that you are agreeing with others that that person you respect should be ignored.

No, I never said the person I respect should be ignored. Not at all. I'm merely listening to ALL the opinions I'm hearing. This is the only way we can make decisions--by hearing several different sides.

I also respect Liam and Liehtzu. In fact, I respect them every bit as much as the other person.

But even if I had altered my original opinion and now disagreed with the person who gave me advice, would not that be alright? I change my mind frequently about many things, mostly because I'm an extremely open-minded person.

I have no idea who that person is

I'd rather not say. She's definitely not one of your friends, but she is a well-respected member of this forum.

... but I do know that some of the things you said on the thread in question were inappropriate and should not have been said, and certainly not publicly (every thread is an open letter).

I've already said they were inappropriate. I don't think I have to continue apologizing for them, Colette. I hope you weren't suggesting that I should do so. I think one apology is certainly enough, and it is my hope that you will accept it.

I'm not sorry that I wrote this "Open Letter," but I certainly didn't have to do so. No one suggested it to me. It was my own decision.

I doubt I can help the fact that some people see me as "pushy" or "aggressive." I cannot compromise myself--that is, the person I am--just to make someone else happy. To try to be more relaxed about things is something I can manage. That was the MAIN point that the person who gave me advice was trying to make. She said that I don't have to try so hard to make my points. Which means I'm not listening to her as I'm trying very hard to make you understand where I'm coming from, Colette.

I feel like I'm always having to explain myself, and I don't honestly like that feeling.

If I agreed with everything the person who gave me advice said two hours ago, and I now only agree with two or three things she said--so what? We must think things through, weigh them for ourselves, and establish our own opinions. We cannot listen to everything any one person tells us, even if that person is very much respected by us.

I appreciate what my two friends have said on this thread. I appreciate what the person who gave me advice told me. All three people like me, value me, and respect me. All three people appear to admire me and think I have a lot to offer this forum. They are all wonderful, and they can share their opinions and advice with me anytime.

I trust I've clarified a few points. If I've come across intensely, that's just me. It ain't nothing personal, dear.

You know, it would've just made my day if you had found something nice to say about my "Open Letter," rather than trying to pick my comments apart. That would have been really classy, Colette. I'm disappointed that you weren't generous enough to do so. I guess I'd have expected more from you. But no harsh feelings. Honestly.


~Titania

 

[Colette Jones]

I've already said they were inappropriate. I don't think I have to continue apologizing for them, Colette. I hope you weren't suggesting that I should do so. I think one apology is certainly enough, and it is my hope that you will accept it.

I seem to have missed your apology. I'm not talking about your original reply - I know we cleared that up.

You know, it would've just made my day if you had found something nice to say about my "Open Letter," rather than trying to pick my comments apart. That would have been really classy, Colette. I'm disappointed that you weren't generous enough to do so. I guess I'd have expected more from you. But no harsh feelings. Honestly.

Come on! I was so obviously NOT picking your comments apart, but have a look at what you've done to mine. Why is everything a fight? Do you see that, with your last paragraph, you are now adding me to the list of people you have personally insulted? I have a thick skin but personal insults make me wary of the person who makes them.

If you want to have a fight you're going to have to find it from someone else though. I have a lot of respect for Stewart and do not want to have fights on his forum. I felt I should speak up but should have known better.

 

[titania7]

At the advice of a friend, I am choosing not to respond to any of your future comments, Colette. My explanations and apologies are simply making everything worse. But I will say this:

I saw a lot of fights in my home growing up. I've seen a lot of fights between people over the course of my life. I am not starting or engaging in a fight with you or anyone else. To even use the word "fight" in connection with my behavior is ludicrous.

In regard to Stewart, he's a personal friend of mine. And from what I know of him, he would never see that comment I made to you as a personal insult. That's just silly and very immature.

You are the one who is trying to start a fight. Not me. I will not respond to anything else you say on this thread as I think you're being completely illogical, and my time is too valuable for me to waste it trying to reason with people who are irrational.

Please understand that anything else you say will be overlooked. Again, I harbor no ill feelings. I simply cannot allow myself to be frustrated by people who make no effort to understand me or get along with me.

~Titania

 

[lionel]

Titania, darling Titania, I can?t imagine many people who would have the guts to do what you?ve done here, and I?m sure my support for you will be echoed by a number of other people on the forum. It?s really heart warming to see comments, such as those by Liam and liehtzu (who summed it up very succinctly by saying life is too short) who had already come to your support before I got up.

This forum would be considerably reduced without the extensive, well-informed, humorous, passionate (and whatever other positive adjectives don?t occur to me at present) contributions that you make to it.

Don?t in any way allow yourself to be deterred by anything anyone might have to say against you. You are loved: take confidence in that.

I certainly know I love you.

Lionel

 

[titania7]

Lionel,
Darling, thank you for your support. I'm very blessed to have a person in my life who loves me and value me so much. What astounds me is that you aren't even related to me! That is, you aren't under any sort of obligation to rush to my defense . Liam and Liehtzu weren't obligated to support me, either. They say that blood is thicker than water, but darling, I don't know about that.


I appreciate your remark about my having guts. It took a huge amount of courage to write that "open letter." Your comments have made me feel it was worth it, even though I was starting to regret it about half an hour ago. I was beginning to think it was creating still more problems. But the important thing is that I did what I thought was right. I did my best to
demonstrate a level of personal integrity that some people refuse to admit I possess.

You and I know better than that, though. We also know that integrity isn't something that you can find on a bookshelf, nor is it something you can buy in a book store. No one has ever won a Nobel Prize for it, either. But heck, it's still more important than nearly anything else--except for love, maybe (though that's a matter of opinion, in all likelihood).

I appreciate what you said about my contributions to this forum. I like to think I'm adding something to it...rather than insulting various people, as some individuals claim.

Truth be told, I know and you know that I'm very much "in touch" with who I am as a person. I do have a strong character, and no matter what anyone tries to say, I would never try to offend, insult, or injure anyone--unless someone provoked me in a vulnerable moment (and it's rare I would seize the bait).

I refuse to be ashamed of anything I've said or done at this forum. And I'm not going to allow other people to make me question my own character and integrity. Life really is too short for that.

Thank you again....and again...and again.

I love you, too.

~Titania

 

[Eric]

What we need on this forum is the simple courtesy of:

If you're knowledgeable, contribute a comment, or introduce an author or book to the rest of us. If you want to know something, ask a question.

The idea of an author you can't read because he's not been translated will either a) arouse your curiosity, or b) bore you rigid.

If it is the former, you can ask, comment, intuiting from the replies whether the author would be your cup of tea, if available in English. This, in turn, gives a translator like me an idea whether this sort of author would keep his head above water in the English speaking countries.

If it is the latter, then do not make snide and childish thread-spoiler comments. Go to another thread which contains things that interest you.

*

When debating, it is discourteous to assume that if someone disagrees with you they are an idiot. Debate can only be held if both parties present logical arguments. Otherwise it is no longer a debate, but a combination of one-upmanship and a slanging match. Such bouts of enmity usually turn nasty at some point.

*

Humour is not insult. The two may overlap at times, but if you call someone's opinions "fascist" or call them a "cunt" or an "anti-Semite" without ever having met them, you have to expect them to hit back. And hard. Implying such things, and then chickening out by pretending it was all a joke is not acceptable. Your conscience will soon tell you if you really meant it. You can lie to others, but not to yourself.

So an avoidance of pointlessly inflammatory language avoids a kind of verbal Gaza. Some people keep shooting little sneaky verbal rockets - but such people are usually very thin-skinned and insecure themselves. Should you hit back, their pride is mortally wounded. If you insult someone, you should expect revenge. If, however, you keep the debate elegant, courteous and sober, you may win or lose. But you won't be regarded as a verbal pariah.

 

[Eric]

Mirabell: you are getting the message. The swiftness of reply is proof of that. Implying, but not having the guts to say out loud, that someone is a) an anti-Semite and b) a boor, is not a way of furthering your reputation as a debater on this forum. You appear to have closed your mind to the opinions of others:

"a verbal Gaza", huh. *pointedly not commenting*

Do comment. If I'm an anti-Semite, I would like to know what a philo-Semite like yourself thinks about such matters.

You used to post intelligent things about books. Why not continue? You claim to read Czech, German and other authors. So why not introduce the rest of us to them?

You seem interested in repeating that I comment on books I've not read. Quite true. A great many of the introductory posts on this forum are the same. It's often just a list of books nicked from the internet, with a little bio-bibliographical detail. I've done a good job introducing Estonian, Finland-Swedish, Flemish, English, and a few other authors to people here. Of course I haven't read every book by the people I introduce. Nor have any of us. The whole idea of this forum is to introduce, explore and debate.

My previous posting (copied by you for some unknown reason) expresses what I think about the immature way that some people behave on these threads very precisely. I hope people will take heed. The forum is being ruined by long-lasting feuds. "Revenge" means hitting back hard and effectively at petty sniping, and exposing the destructive effect that thread-spoilers and querulents are having on the atmosphere of this forum as a whole.

I'm going back to introducing authors I know about. I hope you, Mirabell, will do the same.

 

[Eric]

Mirabell, I still think that you were trying to psych me. Regarding anti-Semitism, this is an interesting comment, under the rubric "Schon wieder Broder":

s*: Henryk M. Broder

Especially this bit:

Denn der moderne Antisemit verehrt Juden, die seit 60 Jahren tot sind, nimmt es aber lebenden Juden ?bel, wenn sie sich zur Wehr setzen.

Good point, Broder! I agree entirely.

 

[saliotthomas]

I think you two guys gave a very good demonstration fo what plague this forum.
I said it already but there should be a "mud pit" where Stewart could put those very interesting debats.

Mirabell i thought you new better?
We do miss Fausto.

 

[Mirabell]

Mirabell i thought you new better?
We do miss Fausto.

right. sorry. that "philosemite" bit made me mad. thanks for calling me to reason. I retracted.

 

[lionel]

I think you two guys gave a very good demonstration fo what plague this forum.
I said it already but there should be a "mud pit" where Stewart could put those very interesting debats.

Mirabell i thought you new better?
We do miss Fausto.

Thank you very much for this intervention, Thomas. Very well put.

 

[Ramblingsid]

Well all I can say to Titania is that in the short time I have contributed to this forum she has always struck me as an enthusiast and a bit of a sweetie.

Yes enthusiasm can create disagreements and arguments but frankly so what. Everyone here is a grown up and should be able to take a bit of argy bargy.

The other thing we should all remember is that despite the fact that we are all enthusiasts for the written word we are all capable of mangling it here and giving an unintended impression in our posts. It's the nature of the beast. The sensible thing to do here is for us all to cut each other a bit of slack, not jump off the deep end, and remain calm and serene at all times

There are no winners and losers here so its pointless being competitive and combative - if we have a good intelligent discussion then we are all winners.

That's my four'pennorth anyway.

 

[Irene Wilde]

"Argy bargy" -- I just love that. Thanks, Sid.

 

[Colette Jones]

So let me get this straight. It's not okay for George to call Eric a cunt, but it is okay for Titania to call Beth a bitch.

Okay, I think I got it. Just so I understand.

As you were.

 

[saliotthomas]

There are no winners and losers here

Exactly.
Well said Ramblingsid.

 

[titania7]

Well all I can say to Titania is that in the short time I have contributed to this forum she has always struck me as an enthusiast and a bit of a sweetie.

Ramblingsid,
Thank you! Yes, I am an enthusiast. And in "real life," people do think I'm sweet. Thus, if I've conveyed both these aspects of myself to you during your brief time here, I've accomplished something.

Yes enthusiasm can create disagreements and arguments but frankly so what. Everyone here is a grown up and should be able to take a bit of argy bargy.

Enthusiasm is frequently misunderstood--that's one of the problems. Personally, I think that enthusiasm ought to be frightfully contagious, and that way everyone would be incredibly enthusiastic (even if they didn't want to be, poor things! ).

The other thing we should all remember is that despite the fact that we are all enthusiasts for the written word we are all capable of mangling it here and giving an unintended impression in our posts. It's the nature of the beast. The sensible thing to do here is for us all to cut each other a bit of slack, not jump off the deep end, and remain calm and serene at all times

I'm working on that serenity part. I need to copy down that last sentence, Ramblingsid, and post it near my computer so that I can read it frequently. I'm thinking you could write an instruction manual for us here at the forum. Your advice is incomparable. And if we all followed it to the letter, we might actually get along with each other. I know that might sound boring, but couldn't we just give it a try? What about a "trial run?" Hey, it couldn't be that bad! And if it's downright excruciating, we can always start tearing into each other again, making mountains out of molehills and whatnot .

There are no winners and losers here so its pointless being competitive and combative - if we have a good intelligent discussion then we are all winners.

A good intelligent discussion sounds like something I would enjoy, even though I suspect some people here would find such a thing mundane. As I said, a "trial run" might be an option. That way everyone feels they're free to return to their previous behavior. It's kind of like signing up for a six-month exercise program at a fitness center. You aren't bound into a permanent contract--there's no lifetime commitment (who wants any of those?) You just see what you think of the program for six months. We could try the same thing at this forum.

Okay, okay. It's probably a bad idea. Why should we establish a genuine camaraderie among ourselves when we can tear each other to shreds?

That's my four'pennorth anyway.

And thanks for that. You're wonderful, Ramblingsid. And I have the feeling you're making a darn good grandpa.

Best,
Titania