Japanese Cinema

Uemarasan

Reader
My comment was, if you go back and read carefully, AS FAR AS I KNOW the country hasn't produced a major writer or filmmaker in the last four decades.

Here are some major filmmakers: Kurosawa, Ozu, Naruse, Mizoguchi, Imamura. If you think the filmmakers you mention are major - though I concede that my not counting Miyazaki as major is due to a bias against animation more than anything else - your definition of what constitutes major is somewhat looser than mine. Miike Takashi? "Beat" Takeshi? Either you are hopping insane or your humor is too subtle for me, my good man or woman. Frankly, I'm surprised that with forty years to play with your list is so loaded with filmmakers who appeared in the last twenty. Fetch further back and you might come across, say Itami Juzo, who's certainly a hell of a lot worthier of your consideration than Misters Miike and Kitano.

So how many Miike Takashi films have you seen? How many do you understand? It's easy to resort to an ossified film canon and received cinematic wisdom, but, yes, Miike Takashi, on par with Mizoguchi as the greatest of Japanese filmmakers. And if you think I'm speaking as a Miike Takashi "fanboy/girl" or someone who's into ultraviolent cinema, you are grossly mistaken. It's his command of the cinematic image and frame and the depth of Buddhist philosophy in his films that I admire. Certainly greater than Ozu, Naruse, Imamura, Masumura. Imamura but no mention of Oshima? I would put Kitano on the same level as Kurosawa, below the previous names. Itami certainly a master, probably in the same league as Kitano and Kurosawa. Why no Wakamatsu? Probably only second to Miike and Mizoguchi. I don't know how you can say my definition is looser when you resort to fossilized, unimaginative notions of what constitutes a major filmmaker. Do you want more names in the last forty years? Terayama, Yoshida, Akio, Takahata, Suzuki, Fukasaku, Ogawa, Kawamoto, Okamoto. All major, all on par with your paltry roster.

I've always admired your posts on this forum, and I bow to your taste and knowledge in literature, but not to your taste and knowledge in film. All the directors I have mentioned are "earthshaking" cinematic talents, and I stand by that. Like I said, you don't seem to know anything about cinema, especially given the names that you rolled out. A layman's list. A safe list. "Bias against animation" says it all.

Anyway, this is a literature board and I go on here to expand my knowledge of books. There are better people to talk to out there about cinema.
 
Last edited:

Uemarasan

Reader
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

Beat Takeshi's film "Hana-Bi" (Fireworks) got very strong reviews when it was released in 1997. This surprised me at the time because I only knew him as a TV talent who often drew on his face with black marker and engaged in juvenile comic sketches. When I later saw the film, I thought it had been wildly overrated. To me, the Quentin Tarantino influence was unmistakable as well as disappointing since I would also apply the adjective "overrated" to the American director.

And Quentin Tarantino was influenced by the Japanese yakuza films of Fukasaku, whom Kitano worked for. If you're going to make a connection between cinematic influences, at least do it right. Kitano is making his films within an actual tradition, compared to Tarantino's pastiche. Of course, he also made Boiling Point even before Tarantino made Reservoir Dogs.
 

Liam

Administrator
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

you don't seem to know anything about cinema
Yes, and characterizing Bela Tarr "as dull as dishwater" was the last straw for moi.

I'm a little surprised at your "low" ranking of Ozu, though. He is by far my favorite Japanese director, and I would certainly rank him higher than that, ;). And what do you think of Hiroshi Teshigahara?
 

Uemarasan

Reader
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

Yes, and characterizing Bela Tarr "as dull as dishwater" was the last straw for*moi.

I'm a little surprised at your "low" ranking of Ozu, though. He is by far my favorite Japanese director, and I would certainly rank him higher than*that,*;). And what do you think of Hiroshi Teshigahara?

Third is pretty high, my dear Liam :) But the dividing line between first, second, third is practically immaterial. Ozu is definitely one of the greatest of filmmakers; I just give the edge to Mizoguchi and Miike for their versatility and sheer passionate abandon. You can definitely argue for Ozu as the greatest. I have no problem entertaining that idea.

He said that? Dull as dishwater? Tarr, the heir of Tarkovsky? Oh my. Perhaps he is the type to watch films for the "story" or "action", which is a lost cause when it comes to a Tarr film...

Teshigahara is definitely a good filmmaker who has made a few great films, but I think his real talent was expressed in ikebana. Incredibly influential. I do admire his work with Abe and his documentaries.
 
Last edited:

liehtzu

Reader
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

I was giving a number of examples of great film directors, not a complete list.

There is a film discussion page in the General Discussion category. Feel free to move this there and we can bicker at will. Liam and I went on a long runaround once upon a time there, because he would occasionally make nonsensical comments like "Bela Tarr is the heir to Tarkovsky" or "David Lynch is a genius." However, I would not like to get into a film debate with you, my dear Sir or Madam. Your comments are so strange (Miike = Mizoguchi, Kitano = Kurosawa) as to not even merit a response. I wonder if any film critic (which I do not claim to be) - not "bloggers," but writers for major film journals - Japanese or otherwise, would listen to such things without recommending you to a good psychiatrist.

Got any more Japanese Nobel lit candidates, or are you done?
 
Last edited:

Stiffelio

Reader
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

I've been following this Nobel thread and, as usual, it has been derailed into other subjects. The above discussion about Japanese cinema is fascinating but it's going to get lost in here; it would be a real shame, wouldn't it? So, please Uemarasan, Liam, Liehtzu and others who participated in this "sub-thread", could you move this discussion to a specific thread, maybe on the General Discussion category) Could moderator Stewart perhaps help sifting through these posts and move them over there? It will be most appreciated.
 

Rumpelstilzchen

Former Member
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

I am not very familiar with Japanese cinema apart from Kurosawa and Miyazaki and a few others. I recently watched Seppuku by Kobayashi Masaki and was very impressed. It even made it to my favorite film list. Next I watched other films by the same director: Kwaidan, Rebellion and The Human Condition. All of them are worthwhile watching, but my favorite remains Seppuku by some length. From those films I guess that he is one of the major Japanese directors of the 60s.
 

liehtzu

Reader
It's strange that I get knocked for not knowing a thing about cinema, yet I'm supposedly somewhat knowledgeable about literature. In fact, I studied cinema in university and have always considered myself more of a film snob than anything else. In literary matters I am a rank amateur, with ride-ranging but slapdash enthusiasms (no Homer, no Hugo, no Austen, no Bronte). On film, though, oh mercy... Admittedly, having been in the Far East for ten years I have been able to catch only so much that's arrived in that time - which may be why I don't recognize some of the newer names on your list. I've been able to read about what's been going on, I've followed the major film festivals, and I try to keep abreast of things. I've also made an effort to track down the recent movies of certain filmmakers (Hong Sang-soo, Lee Chang-dong, Apitchatpong Weerasethakul, Gianni Amelio, Terrence Malick, the Dardennes, etc) who continue to interest me. If I do not know all the names on your list of "great" Japanese filmmakers, it could be due to ignorance on my part. But bearing in mind that we no longer live in days where film distribution is creaky and ineffective, that there are tons of film enthusiasts and film journals out there, keeping this in mind it is certainly POSSIBLE that a world titan Japanese filmmaker has somehow largely escaped the major festival circuit, the major film journals, and my notice - it is not hugely likely.

It does not help that you continue to rate negligible filmmakers as "great" - in doing so you lessen my initial sense of being ill-informed when it comes to names I haven't heard of. Let's take Mr. Suzuki Seijun for instance. Suzuki I would rate with Paul Verhoeven - a director who was pretty much given lousy B-pictures to make, and who was able to transcend those pictures to a degree, but who nevertheless is, at the end of the day, a B-picture filmmaker. If Suzuki was able to fool with the Yakuza picture, if Verhoeven was able to wink at his own moronic uber-violent action movies, it is to their credit. But it hardly makes them great, and it possibly really only points to a lack of ambition on their parts. Certainly Suzuki's silly post-"rediscovery" movies have not shown that a buried wealth of talent had truly eluded the world for so many decades. A movie that knows that it's bad, that continually reminds the audience of its badness (a la the Charlie's Angels films) is no less bad for its self-knowledge. In most cases it just takes on an extra level of smugness.

Ordinarily I would not go out of my way to say that just because someone's tastes differ from mine they are thoroughly, devastatingly wrong. But to say that the man who made Ichii the Killer, one of the most repugnant and stupid movies ever made, is on par with the man who made Ugetsu, Sisters of Gion, and Sansho the Bailiff, and superior to the men who made Tokyo Story, Early Summer, An Inn in Tokyo, When a Woman Ascends the Stairs, Yearning, The Sound of the Mountain, Pigs and Battleships, Intentions of Murder, and Giants and Toys, to name but a pitiful few titles; where the man who made - well, which third-rate, phony poetic Kitano film can I not use as a punching bag here? - is equal to the fellow who made Seven Samurai, Stray Dog, and Ikiru, is batshit bizarre. It doesn't show a lack of taste so much as a call from some Twilight Zone where taste is upside down and inside out. Tell me you think Mizoguchi is a better filmmaker than Ozu, maybe. I may not agree with you, but it's not a completely ludicrous thing to say.

Frankly, my dear Sir or Madam, I suspect that your knowledge of film is what's lacking. I suspect that once we get past certain flashy Japanese directors of the last twenty years and dip into, say, Japanese movies of the 1930s or, worse still, Iranian or Czech cinema, you'll have far less to discuss. My "ossified film canon" may be just that, but they aren't established masters for nothin'. How many Ozu and Naruse films have you actually seen?
 
Last edited:

liehtzu

Reader
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

Kobayashi is a fine filmmaker and I agree that Seppuku is his best film. To continue your excursion into Japanese cinema, best to with the dull, old, magnificent, frequently sublime ossified film canon, all of which are available on DVD with English subtitles in the US, Europe, or Hong Kong:

Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, Ikiru, Stray Dog, Throne of Blood (dir: Kurosawa Akira)
Early Summer, Floating Weeds, Tokyo Story (dir: Ozu Yasujiro)
Fires on the Plain, Tokyo Olympiad (Ichikawa Kon)
Sansho the Bailiff, Sisters of Gion, Ugetsu (Mizoguchi Kenji)
Sound of the Mountain, Flowing, Floating Clouds, When a Woman Ascends the Stairs (Naruse Mikio)
Giants and Toys (Masumura Yasuzo)
Humanity and Paper Balloons (Yamanaka Sadao)
Twenty-Four Eyes, Tragedy of Japan (Kinoshita Keisuke)
Dr. Akagi, Pigs and Battleships, Intentions of Murder, Vengeance is Mine (Imamura Shohei)
Woman in the Dunes (Teshigahara Hiroshi)

God forbid I were to suggest that's anything like a complete list, but all of them's classics and you could do worse. On a lark you can also watch Ichii the Killer, discussed above, if you can stomach it, and Sansho the Bailiff, and see if you can spot the greater filmmaker. Happy hunting.
 
Last edited:

Rumpelstilzchen

Former Member
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

Thanks, I am already familiar with the mentioned Kurosawa films with the exception of Stray Dog. Ozu and Mizoguchi have been on my list for a long time, I have only seen one movie of each director yet. The Teshigahara film is already somewhere on my "disc stack" :), this is also the case for "Black Rain" by Imamura (I read the book in English translation some years ago). I have never heard of the other mentioned directors, though I will look into them, thanks a lot for the list!!!!! :)

To be honest, a quick look at the imdb/wikipedia entries does not wet my appetite for Miike Takashi...
 

Liam

Administrator
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

To be honest, a quick look at the imdb/wikipedia entries does not wet my appetite for Miike Takashi
There's a lot more to Miike's films than meets the eye (unlike Tarantino): Audition is one of the scariest explorations of sexual conflict in modern Japanese society I have ever seen. I mean, this shy and quiet girl basically proceeds to cut the guy's foot off with a piece of barbed wire, therefore maiming him for life (our legs/feet being our principal instruments of support), the way she herself was maimed as a child by the man who raped her. I think it's a subtle exploration of violence in modern culture: her actions are violent, pure and simple; but somehow the show that the men put on in the beginning of the film (so that the main character can audition young pretty women for the role of his future spouse) wouldn't be thought of as "violence" by most people, especially not by men!--and yet it is.

That is one of the messages the film attempts to carry across, that we go around maiming each other in small and subtle ways, but we only REALLY freak out when some major shit happens: when a shooting occurs, or a bombing, or a family man stabs his wife and kids, etc. Miike attempts to reconstruct the steps and unveil the everyday violence that lies beneath most of our actions. So yeah, it's a deeply disturbing, thoughtful and wistful exploration of that theme; besides which, it's also a great work of cinematic experimentation--the second half of the film splits into two narratives, either one of which might be reality or hallucination. You decide which is which. Also not to be missed is the deadpan humor of this film, in particular.

I am not really familiar with Miike; other than Audition, I've seen Ichi the Killer which I didn't particularly care for and the odd prison/gay experimental drama A Million Years of Love (?) which had pretty colors and lots of existential monologues and made, overall, a very good impression on me. I particularly liked the bits with the tattooed Japanese dancer--very appealing, aesthetically speaking!

And yes, L's list is a very good one; I might add a few more titles myself, but I think you have a full plate as it is.
 

Rumpelstilzchen

Former Member
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

Ok, you convinced me, Audition is on the list now :). Basically I am not into the brutal kind of movies, but I will give it a try after Liam's enthusiastic and thoughtful short review, thanks.
 

Liam

Administrator
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

I will give it a try after Liam's enthusiastic and thoughtful short review.
Make no mistake though: certain scenes in the film ARE brutal, perhaps more brutal than anything else you will see on screen (except maybe Irreversible).
 

Stevie B

Current Member
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

I'm curious if anyone has seen Hana and Alice, a film directed by Iwai Shunji starring Aoi Yu. I'm looking for a Japanese film to show a class of mostly female 17 and 18-year-olds, and Hana and Alice seems like it could be a good one.
 

liehtzu

Reader
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

Ok, you convinced me, Audition is on the list now :). Basically I am not into the brutal kind of movies, but I will give it a try after Liam's enthusiastic and thoughtful short review, thanks.

I'm not really down on Audition, though I don't quite share Liam's lofty interpretation of it. It's the best kind of movie to walk into cold, or knowing only a little bit about it. It IS brutal - past the point where it's made its point I think - but it's not lacking in intelligence, and if you go in for those kinds of movies you can do worse. A little more subtle a horror filmmaker is Kurosawa Kiyoshi, whose film Cure is terrific until it begins to spiral out of control halfway through, only to redeem itself in a brilliant blink-and-you'll-miss-it detail in its closing shot.

I would not have it in for Mr. Miike if I'd only seen Audition, but as I said I've also had the misfortune to sit through one of the most repugnant and stupid movies in the history of cinema (Ichii the Killer) and would like to spare anyone but complete sadists from that experience. As far as I'm concerned, if you make a movie like that you are "off the artistic roll-call," as Bill Hicks liked to say. I'm sure that others here will go on to tell you about all the sensitive love stories and "Buddhist" themes of the director, but I don't buy it - there are also people who will say that the man who slices cattle into sections in England is an "artist" in the same sense that Rembrandt is an artist (this would be Ichii the Killer put on the same level as Sansho the Bailiff). If you believe that the cattle-chopper is a genius, then a world of Miike Takashi films awaits you (he's only made about thirty thousand). I say that Mr. Miike is a sick, sick puppy, and I will not spare him another minute of my time.

Again, I say go with the Rembrandts - Tokyo Story, Sansho, When a Woman Ascends the Stairs. The delicacy, beauty, subtlety, and quiet power of these films is unsurpassed. Liam might make a case for Audition but I also seem to recall him saying that Ozu was his favorite Japanese filmmaker. On this, for once, we can happily shake hands.

By the way, the authoritative book on Japanese cinema is still The Japanese Film: Art and Industry by Donald Richie and Joseph Anderson, published in 1960 (though republications have additions for later decades). Considering that this is well before the home video age, the accomplishment is incredible - they must have watched hundreds of films, done massive amounts of research. The book claims Ozu and Naruse as major directors long before the world had ever heard of them. When I first read it it was still the VHS era, and the book whet my appetite for so many films that were just unavailable in that format - comparatively DVD is a miracle, though some that I saw during that time, including Toyoda Shiro's films Snow Country and Wild Geese and Naruse's Mother, have yet to see DVD releases.
 
Last edited:

Rumpelstilzchen

Former Member
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

And my list gets longer and longer :)

By the way, the authoritative book on Japanese cinema is still The Japanese Film: Art and Industry by Donald Richie and Joseph Anderson, published in 1960 (though republications have additions for later decades). Considering that this is well before the home video age, the accomplishment is incredible - they must have watched hundreds of films, done massive amounts of research. The book claims Ozu and Naruse as major directors long before the world had ever heard of them. When I first read it it was still the VHS era, and the book whet my appetite for so many films that were just unavailable in that format - comparatively DVD is a miracle, though some that I saw during that time, including Toyoda Shiro's films Snow Country and Wild Geese and Naruse's Mother, have yet to see DVD releases.

Thanks. The most recent edition seems to be from 1983, so unfortunately three decades are missing :(
 

Rumpelstilzchen

Former Member
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

I just skimmed the imdb entries of both Miike Takashi and Kitano Takeshi. Most of the films by Miike really sound like crap and a wast of time. The fact that he makes half a dozen films per year is not helping to raise my interest ;). Apart from Audition the only film that sounds interesting is The Bird People in China, anyone seen it? Whereas Kitano's films seem to be at least worthwhile entertainment. I will look into a few in the near or far future: Hana-Bi, Sonatine, Kikujiro and Zatoichi. I just realised that I have seen Dolls by him some years ago, I found the film rather dull and uninteresting at the time, probably the reason why I did not bother to check out other films of the director at the time. Oh, and I have seen Battle Royale with Kitano as actor, apart from the nice idea the film was mostly bad, exactly the film Tarantino and such people would hail...
 

Liam

Administrator
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

I would say, at least check out this film in addition to Audition. It's very strange, homoerotic, surreal, violent, and short (under 90 min). I really liked the color scheme, and the endless existential monologues by the main characters. Some stills from the film:

big-bang-2-300x168.jpg


tumblr_l2au03oorf1qzbykto1_500.jpg


big-bang-love-juvenile-a_07p.jpg


6a00d8345192f869e2013485ac466e970c-500wi


bigbanglove11275a74pt2.jpg


bigbanglo3.jpg


bigbanglo8.jpg


bigbanglove5.jpg


big_bang_love.jpg


protectedimage.php


Even if you end up not liking it, it's an experience like no other. It's very Brechtian, to begin with, but also very gentle in many ways, and the young men in the film are absolutely luscious!
 

Rumpelstilzchen

Former Member
Re: Nobel Prize in Literature 2011 Speculation

All those stills are coming from the same film? Interesting... please Liam, stop doing this to me :D, my list is already much too long ;). Ok, I will see what I can do! Hehe...
 
Top