Patrick Murtha
Reader
Now THAT is a trolling / baiting comment, and I won’t respond to such.
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Nobel Prize in Literature 2022
- Thread starter Stewart
- Start date
Now THAT is a trolling / baiting comment, and I won’t respond to such.
Well, honestly, it’s not just the “right” that’s annoyed by or tired of whatever it is that “woke” claims or is claimed to be… But then again, it’s a political language that I personally do not respond to.
namelesshere
Reader
No, it isn't. I appreciate it sounds like it. I am genuinely interested in what people mean when they use the terms "woke" and "anti-woke", and what they mean by them. (The same is true of the term "cancel culture".)
Patrick Murtha
Reader
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. I've read your other posts, I know how you operate. ?
Patrick Murtha
Reader
In fact, woke grenades are more often launched at those on the left or in the center who haven’t “gotten with the program”, than they are at the worst of the right. Nikole Hannah Jones is more down on other black people than she is on Trumpists, for instance.
namelesshere
Reader
I find that completely baffling. But fine. I don't "operate", and I can think of about 2 posts in about 4 years which stray away from simply giving my opinion on books and writers.
Patrick Murtha
Reader
^ I make a BIG distinction between someone expressing friendly disagreement, which is fine, and baiting / trolling, which I am quick to react to. If I misrepresented you, then I do apologize, but I have my own interpretation and I think I’ll just keep my distance from now on.
Not meaning to start a war. On with the discussion.
Not meaning to start a war. On with the discussion.
I find that quite a lot of political labels, as they are used today, are oversimplified and dehumanizing. I guess that’s the point. It’s easier to cultivate polarization and divide people and let people divide themselves voluntarily in order to ultimately manipulate them, whether it’s done through the promise of their votes, their money, the fortification of their tribal allegiances, the practice of ostracism, in order to maintain these structures of power that never really went away. Structures of power that simply reorganized themselves and made themselves more palatable to either the “left” or the “right,” whatever audience they’ve chosen to pander to.
nagisa
Spiky member
I find that dismissing the complex and messy process of politics, presenting "woke" and "anti-woke" politics as mirror equivalents, or darkly alluding that a nebulous "they" is responsible for polarization and division and all the bad things, is an oversimplification. But that's just me I guess.
Patrick Murtha
Reader
Well now, this is getting fun. ?
To put my own political cards on the table, so as not to be “nebulous”: I see myself as center, or slightly center-right. I am definitely disaffected from a lot of liberal and progressive projects, and would no longer use those words. I am elitist; I don’t believe in the “wisdom of the people” - look at who gets elected these days - and thus I have a misgiving, troubled relationship with the idea of “democracy”. If I was voting in the US these days, I would in many instances vote Democratic as a way of voting anti-Republican - but that isn’t saying much. The two-party system in the US is and has been for a long time a complete disaster.
There, I feel better now.
To put my own political cards on the table, so as not to be “nebulous”: I see myself as center, or slightly center-right. I am definitely disaffected from a lot of liberal and progressive projects, and would no longer use those words. I am elitist; I don’t believe in the “wisdom of the people” - look at who gets elected these days - and thus I have a misgiving, troubled relationship with the idea of “democracy”. If I was voting in the US these days, I would in many instances vote Democratic as a way of voting anti-Republican - but that isn’t saying much. The two-party system in the US is and has been for a long time a complete disaster.
There, I feel better now.
And that might be because we live under very different political systems, because this nebulous “they” clearly exists here: the entire system of government itself, the elite and wealthy class in charge of banks, corporations, public institutions, the cult of celebrity and the media powered by them. And “bad things” are done by everyone, either deliberately or inadvertently, regardless of political affiliation. That wasn’t even what I was talking about. Did I dismiss the whole process of politics? Or make some kind of equivalence between the “woke” and “anti-woke”? People are free to identify however they want to. You do you. I think it’s obvious in my posts that what I am firmly against are the cliches of political language and political labels, not politics itself. Man or woman is automatically a political animal the moment his or her birth and name are registered by the state.
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Patrick Murtha
Reader
“…the sun looks down on nothing half so good as a household laughing together over a meal, or two friends talking over a pint of beer, or a man alone reading a book that interests him;…all economics, politics, laws, armies, and institutions, save in so far as they prolong and multiply such scenes, are a mere ploughing the sand and sowing the ocean, a meaningless vanity and vexation of spirit. Collective activities are, of course, necessary; but this is the end to which they are necessary. Great sacrifices of this private happiness by those who have it may be necessary in order that it may be more widely distributed. All may have to be a little hungry in order that none may starve. But do not let us mistake necessary evils for good. The mistake is easily made. Fruit has to be tinned if it is to be transported, and has to lose thereby some of its good qualities. But one meets people who have learned actually to prefer the tinned fruit to the fresh. A sick society must think much about politics, as a sick man must think much about his digestion: to ignore the subject may be fatal cowardice for the one as for the other. But if either comes to regard it as the natural food of the mind--if either forgets that we think of such things only in order to be able to think of something else--then what was undertaken for the sake of health has become itself a new and deadly disease.” - C.S. Lewis
Leseratte
Well-known member
Not so sure if it means the same as alienated!
nagisa
Spiky member
Sorry, whenever anyone calls on CS Lewis as their witness, it makes me uncomfortable because how can you trust a Christian propagandist to children?
(this is gentle sarcasm and throwback to Patrick's post a couple of pages back dismissing Rousseau for similarly spurious reasons. plz no attack)
(this is gentle sarcasm and throwback to Patrick's post a couple of pages back dismissing Rousseau for similarly spurious reasons. plz no attack)
nagisa
Spiky member
Different political systems? Sorry, do they not have an "entire system of government itself, the elite and wealthy class in charge of banks, corporations, public institutions, the cult of celebrity and the media powered by them" in countries you don't inhabit?
You say you are against political clichés, yet your previous post seems to be a bog-standard castigation of the evils of politics. That's what I was pointing out.
You tell me. When I was referring to structures of power, that’s what I meant. I even clearly said “might be.”I don’t inhabit those other countries. I can’t claim to speak for them.
If you somehow interpreted my post as a “bog-standard castigation of the evils of politics,” then it’s strange how that’s what you were able to take away from it. Seems like an oversimplification, or assigning a particular motivation where there is none.
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nagisa
Spiky member
And yes: this is a bog-standard castigation of the process of politics. With which I don't fundamentally disagree! But yes, in my opinion, it is overly simplistic.
It’s a criticism of a particular area of politics, not the entire process. Politics isn’t only polarization, division, tribalism, left vs right, woke vs anti-woke. Now that’s overly simplistic. But yes, let’s transfer the political discussion elsewhere.
Bartleby
Moderator
We have a (newly opened) thread on Ernaux herself, and while I agree that talking politics in an author's discussion page is annoying, it is sometimes inevitable (see the 2019 prize one).
I would only advise everyone to treat each other with consideration, regardless of the discussed topic.
As for politics, one can surely open a thread about any given subject in the General Chat or General Discussion sections.
Annie Ernaux
In spite of all the mentions of her in the Nobel Speculation threads over the years, we don't actually have an explicit thread for Annie Ernaux. This changes that. In 2022, Annie Ernaux was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature "for the courage and clinical acuity in which she uncovers the...
www.worldliteratureforum.com
I would only advise everyone to treat each other with consideration, regardless of the discussed topic.
As for politics, one can surely open a thread about any given subject in the General Chat or General Discussion sections.