Nobel Prize in Literature 2022

nagisa

Spiky member
Here

 

Davus

Reader
"Woke" by now pretty much means "something the right is mad about", and its gallic deformation into "le wokisme" is even less coherent — but funnily enough, Ernaux describes her development into writing (and writing politically) precisely with its original sense: awakening to the mechanisms of systemic oppression.
Well, I'm gay and have leftist views on many subjects but I have to say that "wokeism" is one of those things that I truly despise.
 

Bartleby

Moderator
I'd just like to make the very frivolous observation that with Ernaux there's now another Virgo winner to join the very short list of writers of that sign to have won the prize (forgot the others, but they're only like 4 or 5, and mostly not among the more celebrated ones). As a Virgo myself I'm happy with the representation ?
 
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redhead

Blahblahblah
While I like posting on this forum, I can’t imagine anything more annoying than debating “wokism” (?) on here, so I’ll wade in just long enough to ask what people mean by “woke.” This post by @namelesshere was brushed off:

What does "anti-woke" mean?

But really, what do you mean when you say “woke” or “anti-woke? They’re incredibly nebulous terms. I’ve seen “woke” refer to anything from a militant Puritanism to the existence of women or PoC in media (lol). And “anti-woke”, defined solely by its opposition to it, has an even less concrete meaning, if it means anything other than a dislike of a vague boogeyman.

If we must put it into a binary, then consider me on the “woke” side, but I doubt the usefulness of such a binary. Not gonna say anything further.
 

nagisa

Spiky member
Well, I'm gay and have leftist views on many subjects but I have to say that "wokeism" is one of those things that I truly despise.
While I like posting on this forum, I can’t imagine anything more annoying than debating “wokism” (?) on here, so I’ll wade in just long enough to ask what people mean by “woke.” This post by @namelesshere was brushed off:



But really, what do you mean when you say “woke” or “anti-woke? They’re incredibly nebulous terms. I’ve seen “woke” refer to anything from a militant Puritanism to the existence of women or PoC in media (lol). And “anti-woke”, defined solely by its opposition to it, has an even less concrete meaning, if it means anything other than a dislike of a vague boogeyman.

If we must put it into a binary, then consider me on the “woke” side, but I doubt the usefulness of such a binary. Not gonna say anything further.
Let's shift the debate on the definition of "woke" to the other thread. I am genuinely interested in pursuing it there, and as someone who engages in the topic academically it is an interesting debate to have. I'm gay with leftist views like Davus (but put two leftists in a room and get three opinions on which one is not and why...); and like redhead I suppose I would be put in the "woke" basket, though I recuse the term and the framing it imposes...
 
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nagisa

Spiky member
I think, it's my biggest problem with her works. As Bourdieu wrote something about museums and musem-going I was aware about his ideas before I read my first Ernaux's book. And I just can't see there (in the reality of her texts, or in my perception of this reality of texts) something really Bourdieusian.
Weird. To me she is drenched in Bourdieu!

From my French Quarto edition of her selected works, published in Le Monde on Bourdieu's death in 2002 (dashed-off translation; please excuse the frightful gallicisms).

Grief

The way in which the death of Pierre Bourdieu was announced and commented upon in the media, on January 24, at midday, has been instructive. A couple of minutes at the end of the telecast, insistance — as if it were this incongrous conjoining, unthinkable now, of these two words — on the "engaged intellectual". Above all, the tone of the journalists was very revealing: of distant respect, of removed and stereotyped hommage. Evidently, beyond the resentment they may have felt towards the man who had denounced the rules of the media game, Pierre Bourdieu was not one of their own. And the gap seemed immense between the clichèd recitals and the grief that, at the same time, invaded thousands of people, researchers and students, but also men and women from everywhere, for whom the discovery of the works of Pierre Bourdieu was a pivotal moment in their perception of the world and in their lives.

To read in the 70s Les Héritiers, La Reproduction, later La Distinction, was — still is — to feel a violent ontological shock. I'm using the word ontological on purpose: that which one thought was is no longer the same, the vision one had of one's self and others in society rips apart, one's place, one's tastes, nothing is natural any more, nothing just goes without saying in the functioning of the things that seem the most ordinary in one's life. And if one is issued from the socially dominated classes, the intellectual agreement one finds with the rigorous analysis of Bourdieu is is overlaid with a feeling of lived obviousness, of the veracity of theory in some way validated by experience: one cannot, for example, deny the reality of symbolic violence when one, and one's kin, have been subjected to it.

I have sometimes compared the effect of my first reading of Bourdieu to that of the Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir, 15 years before: the irruption of an irreversible awareness, here on the condition of women, there on the structure of the social world. A painful irruption, but followed by a particular joy and strength, a feeling of deliverance and of shattered solitude. And it's still sad and mysterious to me that Bourdieu's work, synonymous for me with liberation and "reasons to act" in the world, could have been perceived as submission to social determisms. It has always seemed to me on the contrary that, bringing to light the hidden mechanisms of social reproduction, by rendering objective the beliefs and processes of domination interiorised by individuals without them knowing, Bourdieu's critical sociology defatalises existence. By analysing the conditions of production of literary and artistic works, the battlefields from which they emerge, Bourdieu is not destroying art, not reducing it in any way, he is simply desacralising it, he remakes it into something better than a religion, a complex human activity. And Bourdieu's texts have been to me an encouragement to persevere in my writing venture, to speak, among other things, that which is socially suppressed.

The refusal opposed, sometimes with extreme violence, to Bourdieu's sociology, stems, it seems to me, from his method and the language to which it is bound. Coming from philosophy, Bourdieu broke with the abstract manipulation of concepts which founds it — the beautiful, the good, freedom, society — and gave them concretely, scientifically studied content. He unveiled what meant in reality the beautiful when one is a farmer or a professor, freedom if one lives in the cité des Trois Mille [poor & predominantly PoC French suburb], explained why individuals exclude themselves from that which, murkily, excludes them anyway. Like in philosophy and, in the best of cases, literature, it is always and again about the human condition, but not one man in general, individuals as they are inscribed in the social world. And if a discourse that is airily above things, abstract, or prophetic, bothers no one, it is not the same when one tells the overwhelming percentage of children issued from intellectually or economically dominant milieux in the prestigious schools, when one reveals in a rigorous way the strategies of power, here and now both in the universities (Homo Academicus) and in the media. A question of language, substituting, for example, "milieux, people, modest means", and "upper classes" with "dominated" and "dominating", that changes everything: instead of the euphemising and quasi-natural expression of hierarchies, it makes the objective reality of social relations apparent. Bourdieu's work, as painstaking as Pascal's in destroying appearances, in revealing the game, the illusion, the social imaginary, could only encounter resistance in so far as it contains the ferment of subversion, leads to changing the world, the misery of which is shown in the work, his best-known, that he oversaw with his research team [viz., La Misère du monde].

If, with Sartre's death, I may have had the feeling that something was over, integrated, that his ideas would be active no longer, that he was tipping into History, I do not feel the same with Pierre Bourdieu. If we are so many to feel grief at his loss — I dare, which I rarely do, to say "we", because of the fraternal wave that spread spontaneously on the announcement of his death — we are also many who believe that the influence of his discoveries, his concepts and his works will not stop its spread. As it was the case for Rousseau, of whom someone I can't remember said reprovingly, in his time, that his writing made the poor man proud.
 

Leseratte

Well-known member
No, it isn't. I appreciate it sounds like it. I am genuinely interested in what people mean when they use the terms "woke" and "anti-woke", and what they mean by them. (The same is true of the term "cancel culture".)
The same with me. These terms don´t seem all so precise.
I'd just like to the very frivolous observation that with Ernaux there's now another Virgo winner to join the very short list of writers of that sign to have won the prize (forgot the others, but they're only like 4 or 5, and mostly not among the more celebrated ones). As a Virgo myself I'm happy with the representation ?
Me too!
 
What does "anti-woke" mean?

Having vented, I will now answer this. Quoting from myself earlier in the thread:

“I am and always have been a Social Justice Skeptic. The world is, has always been, and will always be, supremely effed-up, given the species that we are. Some gradual amelioration of the worst conditions and abuses is the best we can hope for, and I am all for that; but there ain’t no utopia ahead, ever. Put power in ANYONE’S hands, and they will misuse and abuse it.”

So: anything that I perceive as Social Justice Absolutism, I reject. For example, fulminating against “appropriation”, which I consider a basic and inevitable human activity. And that is what I mean by “anti-woke”.
 
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Morbid Swither

Well-known member
For the record, this term didn't exist for very long time, but emerging, most likely from the USA, there was a little, inspired moment in the linguistic record, and suddenly the term "woke" began to trend, and entered into the mainstream vernacular, catalyzed--you guessed it!--by the internet. It has meaning, but probably not just one. And, as you all can see, it's like one of those volatile elements of the Periodic Table; and it would be defined variously based on who's answering.

But I'm willing to go there...just not right now. Even thinking about it makes me want to pour a drink and light a smoke.
 
For the record, this term didn't exist for very long time, but emerging, most likely from the USA, there was a little, inspired moment in the linguistic record, and suddenly the term "woke" began to trend, and entered into the mainstream vernacular, catalyzed--you guessed it!--by the internet. It has meaning, but probably not just one. And, as you all can see, it's like one of those volatile elements of the Periodic Table; and it would be defined variously based on who's answering.

But I'm willing to go there...just not right now. Even thinking about it makes me want to pour a drink and light a smoke.

I think it is fair to say that “woke” began as a term of praise in certain quarters of the left - it certainly SOUNDS positive - then was seized by the opposition so that now, almost no one wants to claim association with it at all. It is like the reverse of “queer” changing from an insult-word to a pride-word.

I think that among other uses, “woke” has become a perjorative shorthand for certain accusatory hectoring behaviors on the far left. “If you’re not totally with us, you’re completely against us.” This is why people in the center are going to take the brunt of the accusations. People on the right were NEVER going to get with the program, so in that sense they are out of the discussion. (Rightists do this type of thing, too, at least to an extent, hence attacks on “RINOS”.)

I think a good example of wokeism is how any mild questioning of trans ideology is shouted down as just this side of murderous. “People are going to die because you asked that question!” Oh please, calm the eff down.
 
Sorry, whenever anyone calls on CS Lewis as their witness, it makes me uncomfortable because how can you trust a Christian propagandist to children?

(this is gentle sarcasm and throwback to Patrick's post a couple of pages back dismissing Rousseau for similarly spurious reasons. plz no attack)

Well, at least you read what I wrote, so I’ll take that as a positive. ?
 

alik-vit

Reader
Weird. To me she is drenched in Bourdieu!

From my French Quarto edition of her selected works, published in Le Monde on Bourdieu's death in 2002 (dashed-off translation; please excuse the frightful gallicisms).

Grief

The way in which the death of Pierre Bourdieu was announced and commented upon in the media, on January 24, at midday, has been instructive. A couple of minutes at the end of the telecast, insistance — as if it were this incongrous conjoining, unthinkable now, of these two words — on the "engaged intellectual". Above all, the tone of the journalists was very revealing: of distant respect, of removed and stereotyped hommage. Evidently, beyond the resentment they may have felt towards the man who had denounced the rules of the media game, Pierre Bourdieu was not one of their own. And the gap seemed immense between the clichèd recitals and the grief that, at the same time, invaded thousands of people, researchers and students, but also men and women from everywhere, for whom the discovery of the works of Pierre Bourdieu was a pivotal moment in their perception of the world and in their lives.

To read in the 70s Les Héritiers, La Reproduction, later La Distinction, was — still is — to feel a violent ontological shock. I'm using the word ontological on purpose: that which one thought was is no longer the same, the vision one had of one's self and others in society rips apart, one's place, one's tastes, nothing is natural any more, nothing just goes without saying in the functioning of the things that seem the most ordinary in one's life. And if one is issued from the socially dominated classes, the intellectual agreement one finds with the rigorous analysis of Bourdieu is is overlaid with a feeling of lived obviousness, of the veracity of theory in some way validated by experience: one cannot, for example, deny the reality of symbolic violence when one, and one's kin, have been subjected to it.

I have sometimes compared the effect of my first reading of Bourdieu to that of the Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir, 15 years before: the irruption of an irreversible awareness, here on the condition of women, there on the structure of the social world. A painful irruption, but followed by a particular joy and strength, a feeling of deliverance and of shattered solitude. And it's still sad and mysterious to me that Bourdieu's work, synonymous for me with liberation and "reasons to act" in the world, could have been perceived as submission to social determisms. It has always seemed to me on the contrary that, bringing to light the hidden mechanisms of social reproduction, by rendering objective the beliefs and processes of domination interiorised by individuals without them knowing, Bourdieu's critical sociology defatalises existence. By analysing the conditions of production of literary and artistic works, the battlefields from which they emerge, Bourdieu is not destroying art, not reducing it in any way, he is simply desacralising it, he remakes it into something better than a religion, a complex human activity. And Bourdieu's texts have been to me an encouragement to persevere in my writing venture, to speak, among other things, that which is socially suppressed.

The refusal opposed, sometimes with extreme violence, to Bourdieu's sociology, stems, it seems to me, from his method and the language to which it is bound. Coming from philosophy, Bourdieu broke with the abstract manipulation of concepts which founds it — the beautiful, the good, freedom, society — and gave them concretely, scientifically studied content. He unveiled what meant in reality the beautiful when one is a farmer or a professor, freedom if one lives in the cité des Trois Mille [poor & predominantly PoC French suburb], explained why individuals exclude themselves from that which, murkily, excludes them anyway. Like in philosophy and, in the best of cases, literature, it is always and again about the human condition, but not one man in general, individuals as they are inscribed in the social world. And if a discourse that is airily above things, abstract, or prophetic, bothers no one, it is not the same when one tells the overwhelming percentage of children issued from intellectually or economically dominant milieux in the prestigious schools, when one reveals in a rigorous way the strategies of power, here and now both in the universities (Homo Academicus) and in the media. A question of language, substituting, for example, "milieux, people, modest means", and "upper classes" with "dominated" and "dominating", that changes everything: instead of the euphemising and quasi-natural expression of hierarchies, it makes the objective reality of social relations apparent. Bourdieu's work, as painstaking as Pascal's in destroying appearances, in revealing the game, the illusion, the social imaginary, could only encounter resistance in so far as it contains the ferment of subversion, leads to changing the world, the misery of which is shown in the work, his best-known, that he oversaw with his research team [viz., La Misère du monde].

If, with Sartre's death, I may have had the feeling that something was over, integrated, that his ideas would be active no longer, that he was tipping into History, I do not feel the same with Pierre Bourdieu. If we are so many to feel grief at his loss — I dare, which I rarely do, to say "we", because of the fraternal wave that spread spontaneously on the announcement of his death — we are also many who believe that the influence of his discoveries, his concepts and his works will not stop its spread. As it was the case for Rousseau, of whom someone I can't remember said reprovingly, in his time, that his writing made the poor man proud.
Great thanks. Right now I re-read Ernaux's books and I will try to do it via these lenses.
 

peter_d

Reader
While I was driving to work this morning, I listened to a podcast of France Culture (For those who understand French and are interested in the subject, it was last Saturday's episode of La suite dans les idées) in which three sociologists reflected on their fascination for the work of Annie Ernaux. A lot of the discussion above came back as well. Annie Ernaux called into the broadcast herself and gave her opinion. What I found most interesting though, is that Ernaux labelled the choice of awarding her the Nobel Prize a political choice. When asked whether she already knew what her Nobel speech was going to be about, she said: "Sure. I think that it will obviously be a speech that will focus on the two reasons that justified the choice of the Nobel. It is a political choice. I take it as such, this Nobel choice… That is to say, it will be both about the history of women, the condition of women, the body of women, … and on, of course, the social position, social injustices, the desire for social justice. Voilà." (My own translation).
 
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Adding to my to-read list. "Hans Koning" is shown as the translator of Maria Demout's The Ten Thousand Things, which I really enjoyed, so I hope I like his work as well.

Yes, his name appears in both the longer and shorter versions. I also have read The Ten Thousand Things, quite liked it. Very interested in Dutch colonial literature in general.
 

nagisa

Spiky member
Uuuuuugh, beyond stale smear discourse. Supporting Palestine and BDS is not necessarily antisemitism, nor is supporting Boutelja's right to say (sometimes genuinely quite nutty) things. As always, Bruckner is mad that the left-left doesn't think that all Arabs want to skin all Jews alive; and here in particular that Rushdie didn't get it (to stick it to Iran, nyaaah).

The next to last paragraph, implying that somehow one slides from supporting Mélenchon (far-left mainstream, with yes some !aggravating! opinions on international politics) to fucking Alain Soral, a genuine neo-nazi, is sick. And the last sentence is delirium: since the SA gave the prize to an antisemitic author, it too might be.

Left antisemitism exists, and it's ugly. Almost as ugly as seeing it instrumentalised in this way, by a typical disappointed French 70s leftist-turned-right-winger.
 
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