Swedish Academy: The Peter Englund era
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EllisIsland
Reader
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
The permanent secretary does neither choose the winner nor the 5 finalists nor the 15-20 preliminary candidates...
http://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/literature/
The permanent secretary does neither choose the winner nor the 5 finalists nor the 15-20 preliminary candidates...
http://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/literature/
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
I don't think Doris Lessing or Günter Grass were forgotten writers when they were awarded the Nobel Prize. On the contrary, they were still active at the time and very present in the minds of their readers. The fact that they'd had a long and successful career before they got the prize doesn't mean they were forgotten.
Trying to find a pattern for the prize is groundless speculation.
I don't think Doris Lessing or Günter Grass were forgotten writers when they were awarded the Nobel Prize. On the contrary, they were still active at the time and very present in the minds of their readers. The fact that they'd had a long and successful career before they got the prize doesn't mean they were forgotten.
Trying to find a pattern for the prize is groundless speculation.
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Help! Angry people around!
Run for your lifes!
Ok, "forgotten" is a bit strong. Let's say "not on the radar".
About the groundless speculation - so what? It won't hurt to think about it. Besides, there are differences in the scope of writers the Nobel gives the prize to from time to time. There are times when more experimental writers win, others when more famous writers, etc.
Mr. EllisAngryIsland - take a look at the link you sent. It says The Nobel Committee is the group that chooses the finalists. Go check. And the Committee is formed by:
Per Wästberg (Chairman)
FD, Writer
Kjell Espmark
FD, Emeritus Professor, Writer
Katarina Frostenson
Writer
Kristina Lugn
Writer
Horace Engdahl
Professor, Writer
Peter Englund (Secretary)
Professor, Writer
Wow, look at that, THE SECRETARY. Yes, the Permanent Secretary is part of this small group. So, Englund is out, and Danius is in. I didn't say the Secretary chooses ALONE, I never said that. But he is one of the top "choosers".
Help! Angry people around!
Run for your lifes! Ok, "forgotten" is a bit strong. Let's say "not on the radar".
About the groundless speculation - so what? It won't hurt to think about it. Besides, there are differences in the scope of writers the Nobel gives the prize to from time to time. There are times when more experimental writers win, others when more famous writers, etc.
Mr. EllisAngryIsland - take a look at the link you sent. It says The Nobel Committee is the group that chooses the finalists. Go check. And the Committee is formed by:
Per Wästberg (Chairman)
FD, Writer
Kjell Espmark
FD, Emeritus Professor, Writer
Katarina Frostenson
Writer
Kristina Lugn
Writer
Horace Engdahl
Professor, Writer
Peter Englund (Secretary)
Professor, Writer
Wow, look at that, THE SECRETARY. Yes, the Permanent Secretary is part of this small group. So, Englund is out, and Danius is in. I didn't say the Secretary chooses ALONE, I never said that. But he is one of the top "choosers".
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Hey, Mr. Stupid, who said that Englund will not be part of the new Nobel Committee?
Unbelievable the kind of posts people take the time to write.
Hey, Mr. Stupid, who said that Englund will not be part of the new Nobel Committee?
Unbelievable the kind of posts people take the time to write.
EllisIsland
Reader
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
What the hell, if the thread is bad, shoot me or whatever. It's not as if we have too much things happening here in this forum, anyway. If you think this is too little, too silly, go read the ocasional reviews I write or do something else of your life. Should I say I'm sorry for not being perfect all the time?
Older people from this forum - do you want me to delete this thread? Is it that bad? The two guys complaining... you in fact is new, whatever, but the other has more than 1500+ posts. I can delete it...
What the hell, if the thread is bad, shoot me or whatever. It's not as if we have too much things happening here in this forum, anyway. If you think this is too little, too silly, go read the ocasional reviews I write or do something else of your life. Should I say I'm sorry for not being perfect all the time?
Older people from this forum - do you want me to delete this thread? Is it that bad? The two guys complaining... you in fact is new, whatever, but the other has more than 1500+ posts. I can delete it...
Last edited:
pesahson
Reader
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
No, no. Don't delete it. I don't think EllisIsland is being mean to you, I think they're just teasing you a bit.
This post gave me a good laugh so don't worry. You're right. There's not much going on around here recently, so your thread is welcome, even though I don't have much to add to it.
No, no. Don't delete it. I don't think EllisIsland is being mean to you, I think they're just teasing you a bit.
This post gave me a good laugh so don't worry. You're right. There's not much going on around here recently, so your thread is welcome, even though I don't have much to add to it.
Liam
Administrator
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Every thread counts, and you have put some interesting questions forward.
Those who don't want to participate are free to take themselves elsewhere and post on other threads. This is a big forum,.
As my granny used to say, "Can't we just... get along?" LOL.
Every thread counts, and you have put some interesting questions forward.
Those who don't want to participate are free to take themselves elsewhere and post on other threads. This is a big forum,
.As my granny used to say, "Can't we just... get along?" LOL.
Daniel del Real
Moderator
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
I agree with Liam, I think this is an interesting thread to discuss. In my opinion Englund years gave the prize more variety. In the list Vasquez provided no language did repeat and the prize went back to Asia, Spanish language, poetry & short story. I know he didn't do it only by himself, but you could see the Academy trying to pay some of the larger droughts pending and this is probably the influence of Englund as permanent secretary. In my opinion these years came out with better results than let's say, the last 5 or 6 of Engdahl's tenure. My question is why did he stepped down so fast? Horace Engdahl remained as permanent secretary for like 10 years.
I agree with Liam, I think this is an interesting thread to discuss. In my opinion Englund years gave the prize more variety. In the list Vasquez provided no language did repeat and the prize went back to Asia, Spanish language, poetry & short story. I know he didn't do it only by himself, but you could see the Academy trying to pay some of the larger droughts pending and this is probably the influence of Englund as permanent secretary. In my opinion these years came out with better results than let's say, the last 5 or 6 of Engdahl's tenure. My question is why did he stepped down so fast? Horace Engdahl remained as permanent secretary for like 10 years.
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Thank you, guys. Maybe the logic in my mind was lost in translation, but there is a almost official treatmenat the Nobel does to itself that is - each Permanent Secretary is an era, begins and close a certain idea. There is a era of inovators (Faulker etc.), a era of well know names (Pearl Buck etc.)...
And I say that because I bought a book in the Nobel Prize's bookstore, in Sweden, that says that...
I'll, in the future, copy some parts of the book to clarify that vision - the vision that each Secretary tries to reach a something diverse from the Secretary before, or has a more or less clear and defined target for his tenure in power.
But I admit that "forgotten" was terrible - I meant "forgotten by the betting companies" or something like that.
Of course another reason I wrote this topic is so we could indulge in other questions. In example - Why Englund step down so fast? That's a good question. I remember I read him saying that from the beginning he didn't want to stay as long as Engdahl, so he could keep on writing his historical books.
Thank you, guys. Maybe the logic in my mind was lost in translation, but there is a almost official treatmenat the Nobel does to itself that is - each Permanent Secretary is an era, begins and close a certain idea. There is a era of inovators (Faulker etc.), a era of well know names (Pearl Buck etc.)...
And I say that because I bought a book in the Nobel Prize's bookstore, in Sweden, that says that...
I'll, in the future, copy some parts of the book to clarify that vision - the vision that each Secretary tries to reach a something diverse from the Secretary before, or has a more or less clear and defined target for his tenure in power.
But I admit that "forgotten" was terrible - I meant "forgotten by the betting companies" or something like that.
Of course another reason I wrote this topic is so we could indulge in other questions. In example - Why Englund step down so fast? That's a good question. I remember I read him saying that from the beginning he didn't want to stay as long as Engdahl, so he could keep on writing his historical books.
EllisIsland
Reader
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Era of innovators? Era of well known names? Maybe you should throw that book out of the window...
Here:
1999 - Günter Grass
2000 - Gao Xingjian
2001 - V. S. Naipaul
2002 - Imre Kertész
2003 - J. M. Coetzee
2004 - Elfriede Jelinek
2005 - Harold Pinter
2006 - Orhan Pamuk
2007 - Doris Lessing
2008 - Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio
2009 - Herta Müller
So, then tell me what kind of era this was and what this has to do with anything. Ever read the Crying of Lot 49?
Era of innovators? Era of well known names? Maybe you should throw that book out of the window...
Here:
1999 - Günter Grass
2000 - Gao Xingjian
2001 - V. S. Naipaul
2002 - Imre Kertész
2003 - J. M. Coetzee
2004 - Elfriede Jelinek
2005 - Harold Pinter
2006 - Orhan Pamuk
2007 - Doris Lessing
2008 - Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio
2009 - Herta Müller
So, then tell me what kind of era this was and what this has to do with anything. Ever read the Crying of Lot 49?
EllisIsland
Reader
So, we are stuck in another era of well known names it seems, damn...
Daniel del Real
Moderator
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
The era of half-shouldn't-have-gotten-the prize
The era of half-shouldn't-have-gotten-the prize
redhead
Blahblahblah
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
This thread is so great to read, I'll have to go make some popcorn.
Actually, I have noticed that for the most part recently the prize has been alternating back and forth between well-known literary figures and ones more obscure in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't always line up, but I think there's enough there to make a pattern out of it and bet on an obscure candidate if the winner before was well known, or vice versa. Look at the recent years. We went from a Chinese writer (who was quite famous in China, but on the world scale little-known) to Munro, one of the more famous literary writers of our time, and then to Modiano, who, again, wasn't a nobody in his home country, but pretty much was outside of it.
This thread is so great to read, I'll have to go make some popcorn.
Actually, I have noticed that for the most part recently the prize has been alternating back and forth between well-known literary figures and ones more obscure in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't always line up, but I think there's enough there to make a pattern out of it and bet on an obscure candidate if the winner before was well known, or vice versa. Look at the recent years. We went from a Chinese writer (who was quite famous in China, but on the world scale little-known) to Munro, one of the more famous literary writers of our time, and then to Modiano, who, again, wasn't a nobody in his home country, but pretty much was outside of it.
EllisIsland
Reader
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Maybe Modiano was a nobody in the States... but that does not mean he was a nobody outside of his country... he was very well known around Europe long before the Nobel Prize... as were Vargas Llosa, Munro, and Tranströmer... so actually 4 of 6 of the winners were already well known around the world before their win... (and no, the term 'world' is not equal to the US)
but besides that, Müller and Yan may have been 'surprise' winners in the sense that they were not regular names in the speculation business, but also these were far from obscure at the time, at least in Europe...
Maybe Modiano was a nobody in the States... but that does not mean he was a nobody outside of his country... he was very well known around Europe long before the Nobel Prize... as were Vargas Llosa, Munro, and Tranströmer... so actually 4 of 6 of the winners were already well known around the world before their win... (and no, the term 'world' is not equal to the US)
but besides that, Müller and Yan may have been 'surprise' winners in the sense that they were not regular names in the speculation business, but also these were far from obscure at the time, at least in Europe...
Liam
Administrator
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Nor is it equal to Europe. I'm not sure if the vast majority of these writers were that well-known in Africa, Asia, Australia, Central/South America prior to winning the Nobel. A couple of names were universally acknowledged, yes, but not all of them. I have very well-read friends from South Korea and South Africa (two Souths, haha) and they had not heard or read Modiano and Müller before their respective Nobel wins. Europe is much more connected, in all the ways that matter, than the rest of the world. It is a tiny continent of tiny countries, producing some of the world's best culture. At the end of the day the European community is more tightly knit than even Australia and New Zealand, two neighboring countries with similar histories, cultures, languages and experiences, and yet still separated by a gulf.
OverTheMountains
Reader
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Yikes. This EllisIsland character is quite toxic.
I don't think there are many people on this board who would argue with Pynchon getting the prize - he likely won't, though, because he is difficult to make contact with. His life is so private. And the Academy felt a great deal of shame when Sartre refused the prize, I imagine. Why run the risk of letting that happen again?
Well said, Liam. I don't think that there are very many writers out there who have a truly international appeal insofar as they have a sizeable following around the globe. Maybe Murakami? Maybe Rushdie? I think Vargas Llosa had that in spades when he was selected. Aside from him and Alice Munro, though, I hadn't heard of any of the winners who were selected under Engdahl's lead, and I suspect I had only heard of Munro because she is a fellow Canadian, and one that we are very very proud of. Do they know of her in India, or China, or Brazil? Two of these countries alone comprise of nearly 30% of the world's population - how can we say somebody has a truly international appeal if they don't have a decent sized following in these two behemoth countries?
Regardless, I'm ok with saying that Engdahl's period could be recognized for providing an international reputation for several exciting authors. Transtrommer, for all of his literary talents and reputation in Europe, was invisible in Canada except for at the most niche bookstores in our biggest cities. Now I can easily find his recent publications celebrating his with, if not individual folios of his collections. Same with Modiano, unless you were at a french book store in Quebec or a in community with a sizeable francophone population. Mo Yan was entirely unknown, and Muller was a surprise to even the most well-read literature critics on this board. Munro I wanted to win, and Vargas Llosa's win is probably the reason that I read world literature at this point (his interview on our national radio was charming, and my silly young self knew that the Nobel Prize was quite the incredible honour).
I can't speak much to the previous period at all - I wasn't reading world literature during that period. However, looking at that list, I don't know if I see anybody who shouldn't have won the prize. Of course, I haven't read everybody's work, and the distaste for Jelinek on these boards has several times dissuaded me from reading one of the two volumes of hers that I own (but that won't be an acceptable excuse for much longer). In the end, there are always going to be several winners who could be subjectively replaced with others, of course. But somebody who should have outright not won the prize? I don't know - generally I'm willing to trust the academy's assessments, and recognize that for everybody chosen there are a good half dozen others that also could have deservedly received the prize. Which brings us back to Pynchon. Surely he deserves the prize, right?
Yikes. This EllisIsland character is quite toxic.
I don't think there are many people on this board who would argue with Pynchon getting the prize - he likely won't, though, because he is difficult to make contact with. His life is so private. And the Academy felt a great deal of shame when Sartre refused the prize, I imagine. Why run the risk of letting that happen again?
Well said, Liam. I don't think that there are very many writers out there who have a truly international appeal insofar as they have a sizeable following around the globe. Maybe Murakami? Maybe Rushdie? I think Vargas Llosa had that in spades when he was selected. Aside from him and Alice Munro, though, I hadn't heard of any of the winners who were selected under Engdahl's lead, and I suspect I had only heard of Munro because she is a fellow Canadian, and one that we are very very proud of. Do they know of her in India, or China, or Brazil? Two of these countries alone comprise of nearly 30% of the world's population - how can we say somebody has a truly international appeal if they don't have a decent sized following in these two behemoth countries?
Regardless, I'm ok with saying that Engdahl's period could be recognized for providing an international reputation for several exciting authors. Transtrommer, for all of his literary talents and reputation in Europe, was invisible in Canada except for at the most niche bookstores in our biggest cities. Now I can easily find his recent publications celebrating his with, if not individual folios of his collections. Same with Modiano, unless you were at a french book store in Quebec or a in community with a sizeable francophone population. Mo Yan was entirely unknown, and Muller was a surprise to even the most well-read literature critics on this board. Munro I wanted to win, and Vargas Llosa's win is probably the reason that I read world literature at this point (his interview on our national radio was charming, and my silly young self knew that the Nobel Prize was quite the incredible honour).
I can't speak much to the previous period at all - I wasn't reading world literature during that period. However, looking at that list, I don't know if I see anybody who shouldn't have won the prize. Of course, I haven't read everybody's work, and the distaste for Jelinek on these boards has several times dissuaded me from reading one of the two volumes of hers that I own (but that won't be an acceptable excuse for much longer). In the end, there are always going to be several winners who could be subjectively replaced with others, of course. But somebody who should have outright not won the prize? I don't know - generally I'm willing to trust the academy's assessments, and recognize that for everybody chosen there are a good half dozen others that also could have deservedly received the prize. Which brings us back to Pynchon. Surely he deserves the prize, right?
Ater Lividus Ruber & V
我ヲ學ブ者ハ死ス
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
Supposedly, Engdahl's tenure centered on "witness literature."
1999 - Günter Grass - WWII Germany
2000 - Gao Xingjian - Communist China
2001 - V. S. Naipaul - Post-colonial Trinidad and India
2002 - Imre Kertész - Holocaust
2003 - J. M. Coetzee - South African Apartheid
2004 - Elfriede Jelinek - Violence & discrimination against women
2005 - Harold Pinter - His "comedy of menace" and political phase (especially targeted at the U.S.)
2006 - Orhan Pamuk - (Armenian Genocide)
2007 - Doris Lessing - Women as agents
2008 - Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio - Indigenous cultures choked by hegemonic advances
2009 - Herta Müller - Communist Romania
Supposedly, Engdahl's tenure centered on "witness literature."
1999 - Günter Grass - WWII Germany
2000 - Gao Xingjian - Communist China
2001 - V. S. Naipaul - Post-colonial Trinidad and India
2002 - Imre Kertész - Holocaust
2003 - J. M. Coetzee - South African Apartheid
2004 - Elfriede Jelinek - Violence & discrimination against women
2005 - Harold Pinter - His "comedy of menace" and political phase (especially targeted at the U.S.)
2006 - Orhan Pamuk - (Armenian Genocide)
2007 - Doris Lessing - Women as agents
2008 - Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio - Indigenous cultures choked by hegemonic advances
2009 - Herta Müller - Communist Romania
Re: Swedish Academy - The Peter Englund era
The answer is YES, albeit in the literary circles. Modiano, I wouldn't dare say the same.
The answer is YES, albeit in the literary circles. Modiano, I wouldn't dare say the same.