English isn't enough

hdw

Reader
In today's Observer the translator Michael Hofmann makes an eloquent plea for British people to learn foreign languages and takes a swing at the official policy of downgrading their importance in the school curriculum. The high command of the newspaper obviously agree with him as there is an editorial backing him up.

New to me - apparently foreign secretary William Hague has been to Brussels to protest about the fact that Brits have been unable to take up jobs earmarked for them in the European Commission because of a dastardly rule that they have to sit exams. in a 2nd language.

To speak another language isn't just cultured, it's a blow against stupidity | Michael Hofmann | Comment is free | The Observer

Harry
 

DWM

Reader
I would have thought that a reasonable position on this question is that linguistic ability is a matter of gift and temperament. Not all children possess it, and to demand that everyone should learn a second language is a little extreme, in my opinion. In addition, English is a world language which now fulfills something akin to the role that Latin played in the Middle Ages, so is the learning of foreign languages really necessary for native English-speakers? It may be a nice moral gesture, but is it anything more than that, and isn't there something a bit high-handed about Hofmann's impressions, which read like those of a lordly outsider:

There is this strange cluelessness of the English. The country is so rooted, so settled, one thinks it has survived everything others can throw at it, but it won't survive its own wildly irresponsible experiments on itself. The language, so comfortable, so free of rules, so smashed and contracted and knocked into a cocked hat. Who any longer knows the difference between "its" and "it's" or "may" and "might"? Who can spell "potatoes"? Not a greengrocer, that's for sure....
 

Loki

Reader
In addition, English is a world language which now fulfills something akin to the role that Latin played in the Middle Ages, so is the learning of foreign languages really necessary for native English-speakers?

Yes, I think so too. But in this way the English are growing more and more presumptuous (no offence): on the one hand because they take for granted that they are understood all around the world and so they do not even try and speak one or two words in the language of the country they are visiting; on the other hand because they demand that you speak perfect English, otherwise they scorn you.
 

DWM

Reader
they demand that you speak perfect English, otherwise they scorn you.

I think that's an attitude more typical of French or Swedes. No offence. :)

Seriously, I think that English people and Americans are more tolerant than that.
 

pesahson

Reader
I would have thought that a reasonable position on this question is that linguistic ability is a matter of gift and temperament. Not all children possess it, and to demand that everyone should learn a second language is a little extreme, in my opinion. In addition, English is a world language which now fulfills something akin to the role that Latin played in the Middle Ages, so is the learning of foreign languages really necessary for native English-speakers? It may be a nice moral gesture, but is it anything more than that, and isn't there something a bit high-handed about Hofmann's impressions, which read like those of a lordly outsider:

So how did it happen that English became the new lingua franca? I mean, there must a lot of really talented foreigners who managed to learn the language! It's not a language forum but I have to make it clear that I totally disagree with the notion that you have to be talented to learn (at least) one language to a very good degreee. It is simply not true. Anyone can do it (with a good method and motivation). It's not hard, it's just a long process. You've learned your native tongue, you are capable of learning any other language.
One more thing. You have that delusion of living in a world where English is the only language you need to know, because milions of people make the effort (or as you phrased it, they make a "nice moral gesture") and learn English.
 

mesnalty

Reader
I mean, there must a lot of really talented foreigners who managed to learn the language! It's not a language forum but I have to make it clear that I totally disagree with the notion that you have to be talented to learn (at least) one language to a very good degreee. It is simply not true. Anyone can do it (with a good method and motivation). It's not hard, it's just a long process. You've learned your native tongue, you are capable of learning any other language.

"Talent" is maybe not a big factor, but there are a lot of other factors affecting how well one can learn a second language. It seems a bit disingenuous to claim that because you learned your native language (which everyone does, save people with language-specific impairments), you can learn a second language; there's almost certainly a major qualitative difference between first language acquisition and second language acquisition (the critical period hypothesis). Sure, no matter who you are, you can probably learn a second language to some degree, but some people, despite being highly motivated, are just not as good as others.
 

DWM

Reader
Remember that we are talking - or at least I think Michael H. is - about children, at school. Recalling my own schooldays, I know that the majority of kids were simply not interested in learning a foreign language.

It's somewhat similar to the situation with translated literature.The attractiveness of the "foreign" needs to be advertised and marketed - otherwise there will be no interest.
 

pesahson

Reader
I agree that some people will learn faster than others. And it might be true that some people will have it easier to master an accent. And yes the famous critical period hypothesis. I'm not saying that it is totally wrong, but it is used mostly as an excuse (I'm too old, bla bla). You may not have a perfect accent but you still can reach proficiency. The scholars debate among themselves what is the best method for second language aqcuisition and we won't find an anwser in this thread I think. But apart from that. Do you think it should be expected of everyone to make the effort to learn a foreign language?
 

pesahson

Reader
Remember that we are talking - or at least I think Michael H. is - about children, at school. Recalling my own schooldays, I know that the majority of kids were simply not interested in learning a foreign language.

It's somewhat similar to the situation with translated literature.The attractiveness of the "foreign" needs to be advertised and marketed - otherwise there will be no interest.

Not everyone is interested in math, or science, or history. So what?
 

DWM

Reader
Originally posted by pesahson:
Not everyone is interested in math, or science, or history. So what?

Are you going to force children to learn a foreign language?

Somehow I don't think the results will be very great...
 
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pesahson

Reader
Force them as in keep languages on the school/university curriculum? Yes!
I think that is the heart of the matter. I wouldn't argue to drop, let's say, biology from the curriculum (even though I have no intrest in biology whatsoever). But I think that having some knowledge of how our bodies work, etc is ought to be required of someone who finished high school (let alone university and is considered 'educated'). The same goes for languages.
 

DWM

Reader
I certainly agree that foreign languages should always be on the curriculum of schools, colleges and universities, though (in the UK, at least) this costs taxpayers' money and may squeeze out other equally deserving subjects and resources.

But essentially, I think, the problem boils down to one of advocacy. Children and adults need to be made aware that knowing at least one foreign language beyond phrasebook level will expand their life horizons and employment opportunities. But quite how that's to be done is still unclear.

Non-English-speakers learn English because they have to in the modern world. There is no such pressure on those whose native tongue is English.
 

pesahson

Reader
I certainly agree that foreign languages should always be on the curriculum of schools, colleges and universities, though (in the UK, at least) this costs taxpayers' money and may squeeze out other equally deserving subjects and resources.
It's a question of priorieties and it's never easy.

But essentially, I think, the problem boils down to one of advocacy. Children and adults need to be made aware that knowing at least one foreign language beyond phrasebook level will expand their life horizons and employment opportunities. But quite how that's to be done is still unclear.
I agree. It's easier said than done. If Polish education system worked perfectly, every high school graduate would speak two languages well enough and a university graduate would be fluent in at least one. It's not that at all. But luckily nobody questions the importance of teaching languages.

Non-English-speakers learn English because they have to in the modern world. There is no such pressure on those whose native tongue is English.
True. But it's fine. I won't complain. Because thanks to that need, one learns how to go about learning languages, understands the importance of it, is ready for more ;).
 

mesnalty

Reader
I agree that some people will learn faster than others. And it might be true that some people will have it easier to master an accent. And yes the famous critical period hypothesis. I'm not saying that it is totally wrong, but it is used mostly as an excuse (I'm too old, bla bla). You may not have a perfect accent but you still can reach proficiency. The scholars debate among themselves what is the best method for second language aqcuisition and we won't find an anwser in this thread I think. But apart from that. Do you think it should be expected of everyone to make the effort to learn a foreign language?

I'm sure we won't solve the mysteries of language acquisition in this thread, but that's no reason to just dismiss well-supported theories offhand. Anyway, I suppose it doesn't have too much relevance to the question at hand.

Certainly it's desirable for people to be bi- or multilingual. Should it be required or expected of everyone? Well, the only things that I think should be required in schools are math and English, since they are pretty well indispensable. Some people will bemoan the fact that not enough kids know their history, some that not enough people speak non-English languages; but not everyone can study everything. Let those who are interested in languages study languages. In Ontario, French is generally mandatory from grade 4 to grade 9, but those who don't enjoy it just stop taking it after grade 9, and forget most of it in a few years. Maybe it would work better if kids were taught in both official languages starting earlier (say, grade 1). I definitely wouldn't complain.
 

Loki

Reader
You've learned your native tongue, you are capable of learning any other language.

It's not the same thing, you must own. It's a very different process.

Anyway, children, even from the UK, should learn at least one foreign language; I don't say they should study Estonian, as Liam suggests (although it could be a good idea!), but what about Spanish, which is spoken by more than 300 million people, or even Chinese.

Liam, I'm happy that the average American doesn't give a shit, and i wish it would be true for the Brits; even my British teachers admitted to it.
 

Eric

Former Member
There's a lot to discuss here. So let's take it point by point:

1) The Hofmann article is excellent. The only sad thing is that those writing in the Guardian and Observer didn't shout louder about things like this when Labour was in power. Then they could have done something.

2) All schoolchildren must, at about the age of eleven, be given the chance to acquaint themselves with at least one foreign language. I was not good at Latin at school; I'm still no good today, some 40 years later. But the fact I did that, French and some German there, meant that I at least knew what nouns, verbs, past participles, gerunds, conjunctions, conjugations and the rest were. That formed the basis for my good Dutch and Swedish, later on in life.

Schoolchildren are a captive audience. Few people are going to be enthused to voluntarily learn a language as an adult with no previous knowledge of languages.

3) Pesahson makes two valuable points: schoolchildren don't like maths, history, science either. And, a more important point, that DWM almost suggests, by the logic of his argument that Britons are less intelligent than foreigners because they find languages so hard. It is a question of motivation and some coercion. You simply cannot allow British schoolchildren to grow into adulthood without a knowledge of a couple of key foreign languages. Or ones spoken nextdoor, like Dutch and the Scandinavian ones. Teaching people Mandarin early on in life is a red herring. That is for trade only. If the Chinese economy collapses, no one will be interested in Chinese graduates. Whereas German and French are the languages of our immediate neighbours.

4) Starting to teach children languages before they have a solid grip on their mother-tongue is another politically correct exercise in making it look good. Make sure that eight-ten-year-olds know English well, before forcing them to learn other languages.

5) Britons, if they are to fit in during extended stays in countries abroad, would do well to learn the local language for social, as well as intellectual, purposes. Otherwise you will feel left out and will be shut out of much communication.

6) Let French be a "dead language". But it would be courteous to tell French-speakers (whether from France, Belgium, Canada or Congo) that their language is defunct - in their language. And this, of course, renders the language a living one, because you only pick quarrels in living tongues.

7) Let it be known: even I, a translator of literature from Estonian, don't speak it that well. Literary translation and pub chat require a very different approach. Words on the page don't move. Dictionaries exist and nuances can be found. But in a quick-fire conversation, you are soon out of your social and linguistic depth unless you can give as good as you get. It is not fun to be consigned to the baby-language corner while the rest of them are discussing Proust or insider trading using all the current expressions.

8) Learning another language after the age of say five is more difficult because your ability to pick up languages naturally diminishes with age. Hence all those "Teach Yourself" courses for adults. Schoolchildren are, at eleven, still a bit in the ease zone when it comes to learning. This is another argument for forcing children to learn languages, while their brains are still reasonably receptive.
 

pesahson

Reader
It's not the same thing, you must own. It's a very different process.

I agree that learning or as some prefer to say aqcuiring a second language differs from how you did it with your mother tongue. It is mostly because of the methods we choose. (Many people disagree with the methods of traditional language learning. If you?re interested you may check out some websites: Antimoon.com: How to learn English effectively; Comprehensible input - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; About | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time). But what I really meant when I wrote that sentence was: the ability to learn languages is innate to us and we shouldn?t underestimate ourselves only because we?re older then twelve.
 

DWM

Reader
And, a more important point, that DWM almost suggests, by the logic of his argument that Britons are less intelligent than foreigners because they find languages so hard.

Don't put words in my mouth, please. I did not say or imply any such thing.

It is a question of motivation and some coercion.

While motivation, via the right kind of incentives, might succeed in interesting English schoolchildren in foreign languages, coercion will definitely fail.

It's as simple as that.
 
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