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O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden = O sacred head sore wounded.
Harry (who has sung many a mass in amateur choirs)
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I like the Sieburth. It makes the most sense to me and is the most natural sounding. The others have an awkwardness that sounds unsure and compromised.
Well, Hoelderlin isn't exactly "Die Maerchen der Bruedern Grimm"; The only easier one I can think of is the early work "Die Eichbaeume." Certainly much easier than "Lebenslauf."I don't. Actually, throughout literary history, people have been puzzled and overwhelmed by the poem. Borchardt said that it was actually fragments of a bigger poem and rearranged the lines, Dilthey just mumbled something and hid in a corner, his early editors thought that this poem belonged to the mad period. I think it's an extraordinarily difficult poem
Well, Hoelderlin isn't exactly "Die Maerchen der Bruedern Grimm"; The only easier one I can think of is the early work "Die Eichbaeume." Certainly much easier than "Lebenslauf."
It's also the one that has least to do with the original poem. [...]
If you think it's easy I think you haven't understood it.
Na es ist doch Dichtung! Verstehen ist nicht so wichtig als Gefuelle und Mitleid zu erwachen. Diese Gedichte errinert mich an des Rilkes "Herbstttag." Ich verstehe eigentich nicht, warum Blaetter "treiben" und nicht getriebt werden, aber dies ist mir sehr bedeutungsvoll.
Du hast ganz recht, du "verstehst eigentlich nicht". Rilke ist ein dunkler Rauner, dessen Werk tats?chlich in der Hauptsache sentimental ist. H?lderlin hingegen ist ein brillianter Denker, dessen Werk von hohem intellektuellem Wert ist, er verhandelt literarische, theologische, philosophische und politische Positionen seiner Zeit in seinen Gedichten. Ein Vergleich mit Rilke ist nahezu beleidigend.
Entshuldigung, beleidigen will ich ihnen nicht. Erklaren Sie mir aber bitte, ob das Dutzen hier normal ist.
You are such a Fachidiot, it amazes me every time.
Do you notice how you only look for meaning in the words directly, in the way words are built etc? There is also meaning in form though, and this poem is partly so amazing because it is vollkommen in this while still leaving an exit door. And indeed it leaves this exit in many, many ways - which is why it is daring, continually daring. Sieburth's translation reproduces this Vollkommenheit in itself best, but lacks e.g. in the aspects you pointed out.
I don't.[think it's straightforward] Actually, throughout literary history, people have been puzzled and overwhelmed by the poem. Borchardt said that it was actually fragments of a bigger poem and rearranged the lines, Dilthey just mumbled something and hid in a corner, his early editors thought that this poem belonged to the mad period. I think it's an extraordinarily difficult poem
Mirabell, why did you take this survey to see which versions we like, only to tell those of us you disagree with that we are wrong, even though you say it's so difficult that "people" (meaning critics, I assume) have been "puzzled and overwhelmed" by it "throughout literary history?"
Your survey was answered. Take the information and make what you will of it. There's no need to start a fight.
Actually, I'm not sure it's vollkommen. I think it's an extraordinarily difficult poem, and hinges on every single detail. It's insanely hard to interpret properly, and words like heilign?chtern are of central importance. THE POEM MEANS SOMETHING ELSE IF YOU CHANGE THE GODDAMN WORD to "ern?chternd". I have a lot of sympathy for the notion that this poem is just the fragment of a larger poem. In any case, you can't exchange its words for words that mean something extremely different and change the meaning of the poem.
I don't (find this poem straighforward). Actually, throughout literary history, people have been puzzled and overwhelmed by the poem. Borchardt said that it was actually fragments of a bigger poem and rearranged the lines, Dilthey just mumbled something and hid in a corner, his early editors thought that this poem belonged to the mad period. I think it's an extraordinarily difficult poem