A language is not a country

Liam

Administrator
Interesting insights from all of you; however, I'm still holding on to my original position: the language is the primary vehicle of expression in most of literature, so if a writer chooses to write in French, he or she is contributing a little something to the vastness of French literature. It is completely irrelevant if they themselves are Bulgarian, Moroccan or Russian.

See, it's easier for artists and composers, since music and paint are universal. Languages, however, are not. But then again, there are always exceptions to the rule. Irish literature did not suddenly cease to be Irish simply because the population switched to English.

I don't know. All this is very tricky.
 

promtbr

Reader
he was born in bulgaria, but left when he was six. I deny that it makes him Bulgarian. Six years. Most of his life was spent in Switzerland and Austria, part of it in London. his first language wasn't bulgarian either.

(and shacked up with Iris for a spell) etc ...I had read that. But still by my arbitrary 'standards' puts him in my Emigre section...I btw HAVE divided all my german language writing authors by country (wow that Austrian section looks pretty impressive *sarcastic inflection*)





----
 

Clarissa

Reader
That Austrian section should be divided again -Austro-Hungarian and post WWI with yet another section post WII.
You may find that there are more in the first section and in the second. Post WWII I can only think of Handke, Jellinek and Bernhard plus a few minor writers or poets, Frederike Mayr?cker (poet), Gerhard Roth (not a patch on Joseph). Austro-Hungarian Empire, post WWI to 1938 there the list becomes most impressive and much longer, even if the time span is somewhat greater!
Kafka, Schnitzler, Stefan Zweig, Hugo von Hoffmansthal, Joseph Roth, Karl Kraus, Robert Musil, Rainer Maria Rilke, Franz Werfel, Canetti (yes, I include him in this list) just to name a few.
 

Mirabell

Former Member
That Austrian section should be divided again -Austro-Hungarian and post WWI with yet another section post WII.
You may find that there are more in the first section and in the second. Post WWII I can only think of Handke, Jellinek and Bernhard plus a few minor writers or poets, Frederike Mayr?cker (poet), Gerhard Roth (not a patch on Joseph). Austro-Hungarian Empire, post WWI to 1938 there the list becomes most impressive and much longer, even if the time span is somewhat greater!
Kafka, Schnitzler, Stefan Zweig, Hugo von Hoffmansthal, Joseph Roth, Karl Kraus, Robert Musil, Rainer Maria Rilke, Franz Werfel, Canetti (yes, I include him in this list) just to name a few.

why not divide the German list, to do it properly, into

BRD
DDR
Weimar Republic
German Kaiserreich
and then of course all the dozens of states before Germany existed at all.
 

Eric

Former Member
I'm glad that Harry (#13) responded swiftly regarding G?nter Grass. There are many authors in Europe who have quite a complicated ethnic background. Unfortunately, the obsessive labellers and pigeonholers that some literary experts have become just don't see it: a language is not a country.

Daniel (#14) sums up what has been written on another thread: the fact that people sometimes write in two or more languages, some of which are not even their mother-tongue.

One shouldn't get too excited about the label "?migr?". What counts is the cultural and social environment an author was brought up in as a child, coupled with the language he or she writes in as an adult. This is a complex issue. Once again, some people try to simplify, so that the author can be parked on the right shelves in the library. But: which shelves are the right ones? Take Gombrowicz, a Pole writing in Polish in Argentina: was he a Polish or Argentinian author?

Elias "Crowds and Power" Canetti spent his last years sitting in some caf? in London, but as Mirabell correctly points out, it is a simplification to call him "Bulgarian". Many Jews became what is termed "cosmopolitan". They lived in several countries, spoke several languages. People like anti-Semite Stalin (an immigrant himself) hated this aspect of Jews, as it seemed to threaten them. Jews have often been in awkward or complex language situations. All those immigrants from Eastern Europe to France, Britain and America had to choose in which language to write. And Kafka was a German-speaking Jew living in predominantly Czech-speaking Prague. He knew Czech and Yiddish, but the latter was not his mother-tongue (mame-loshen to you) either.

Languages and cultures interweave. Unfortunately, in Britain and the USA many people haven't yet realised the whole continuum from "one language, one country" to countries where there are a whole host of languages, all jostling for pride of place.
 

Mirabell

Former Member
Unfortunately, in the USA many people haven't yet realised the whole continuum from "one language, one country" to countries where there are a whole host of languages, all jostling for pride of place.

huh? how do you figure? isn't American literature shock full of these fascinating mixes of languages and backgrounds; I think I have never read a greater book about the way that the language you brought with you and the language you encountered, mesh and collide, as Henry Roth's stunning Call It Sleep.
 

Liam

Administrator
Unfortunately, the obsessive labellers and pigeonholers that some literary experts have become just don't see it: a language is not a country.
Eric makes some excellent points in his post (I hope he doesn't consider Liam a "pigeonholer," though :eek:); however, the question I tend to ask myself whenever I read a book by Conrad or the later Nabokov is: What literature were they contributing to when they were writing Lord Jim and Lolita? I don't care about their ethnic background or their citizenship. Jonathan Littell is an American Jew, living in Barcelona and writing in French. Whatever his ethnicity (which is inborn) or his nationality (which is fluid, permeable and unstable), by writing Les Bienveillantes he's contributing to the body of French literature.

A hypothetical example, if you please. An Icelandic astronaut with a penchant for writing poetry composes a sequence of haikus on national themes while on a mission to the Moon. During this time, Iceland enters a war with the U.K., is occupied, and subsequently loses its status as an independent nation. Back at home (whatever that is), the astronaut manages to publish his poetic sequence in the Icelandic language. So: what literature is he contributing to while he's orbiting the Moon?

Eric's mention of Gombrowicz is an excellent case in point. If he's writing in Polish, I'd classify him as a Polish writer, wherever he's living. Kafka was a German writer not because he was a German citizen (he wasn't) but because he chose to write in German. When you see a translation of The Castle, it says translated from the German by such-and-such.

The trick lies in distinguishing the finer line between the author's linguistic heritage (whether truly inherited or adopted) and his/her nationality, which can change overnight. Of course Elfriede Jelinek is an Austrian author, she lives in Austria, holds an Austrian passport and speaks German (I should imagine) with an Austrian accent. However when I open my copy of The Piano Teacher to the title page, it says translated from the German by Joachim Neugroschel. It doesn't say translated from the Austrian, as it doesn't say translated from the Czech in Kafka's case. This is the point I've been trying to make all along.

Of course, dozens of counter-arguments can be offered to challenge this view. What happens, as was the case with Ireland, when a nation loses its native language almost completely? Are Irish writers who write in English somehow not entirely Irish? Nonsense. Then what are they? Well, while their ethnicity may be Irish, and their citizenship may be Irish, British, American, Canadian or something else entirely, if they're writing in English they're contributing to the field of English literature. Translations of Yeats, Heaney and Joyce into Russian and Polish (just a random example, really) would all say translated from the English by [--], and not translated from the Irish.

You can put them under whatever flag you want based on ethnicity, nationality (which is sometimes dual), citizenship, etc, but to me, their chosen literary language is the ultimate factor.

But 'tis a muddle, sure as shit.

Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109) was born in the Kingdom of Burgundy (somewhere in modern-day France), but was of Lombardic descent (Lombards were a Germanic nation originally from southern Scandinavia who settled in the Kingdom of Italy in the second half of the sixth century). In 1093 Anselm became Archbishop of Canterbury. He spent the rest of his life in England, and died there in April 1109. Anselm of Canterbury wrote countless works of theological nature, in Latin. So, how would you classify him? What flag would you put him under? What country can claim him as part of its heritage?

Something to think about, certainly.
 

miercuri

Reader
I see your point, however, literature written in English does not necessarily mean English literature. The same goes for French and German and Spanish, Portuguese. Authors may have a language in common but be worlds apart culturally (and sometimes geographically). Literature does not rely on linguistic aspects as much as it relies on cultural ones, hence, in translations it is not the language that prevails. Afterall language is but a code, used masterfully nevertheless.
 

Mirabell

Former Member
but culture does not equal nations. each of the five+ Germanies I listed above is as distinct as "german" literature is from "austrian".
 

Omo

Reader
[...] but to me, their chosen literary language is the ultimate factor.

Seconded. When it comes to literature, the chosen language of writing is the deciding factor. In which countries and states one lives has more to do with politics, less with culture.

And concerning this whole Austrian/German discussion, I'm convinced that Bavaria and Austria are culturally much closer than e.g. Swabia and Frisia so I don't believe it would make any sense to distinct specifically between Austrian and German literature.
 

Clarissa

Reader
And concerning this whole Austrian/German discussion, I'm convinced that Bavaria and Austria are culturally much closer than e.g. Swabia and Frisia so I don't believe it would make any sense to distinct specifically between Austrian and German literature.
John Fante (California) is worlds apart from William Faulkner (deep South), Arthur Miller from Tennessee Williams. And so on, the same can be said of Scottish writers as opposed to Welsh or English - yet all have the common denominator of the language, even if that undergoes big regional changes in the writing.
The differences within the different countries are as great as with those writing in the same language in another country viz. Fante - Faulkner or Faulkner-Dylan Thomas.
 

Eric

Former Member
To put it succinctly, pigeonholing should not become Procrustean. Obviously libraries have to make decisions (or buy several copies of certain books), but it must always be realised that certain authors, often famous ones, live between countries and cultures. Though the language a person chooses to write in, and the reason for doing so, count for a lot when discussing an author's provenance.

More later. I'm going to watch Newsnight.
 

promtbr

Reader
I am entertaining the thought (not yet a firm opinion) that there are levels? Sub Categories? that influence the need to separate/distinguish authors.

Nationalistic -'Pride of ownership'
Cultural - Ditto also aplies to bio/critical
Linguistic/Literary - How we treat/compare them critically
Archival- Where we situate the books on the shelves

I can't believe there can be any consensus on a 'Meta' to the above.


BTW, just read this interview with Joseph O'Neill on Elegant Variations.
Please tell me which flag you want to put next to his name? Neverland just got moved to the 'Emigre' section of my shelves. Does that signify anything other than where I look for it??? To me, no.


---
 
This discussion reminds me of the Racial Draft on the Dave Chappelle show. In which different races vied for different multi-racial celebrities to be categorized as a member of their race as opposed to another.

I will cede Henry James and T.S. Eliot to the English if the Russians allow us (the big U.S.) Nabokov.
 
Last edited:
This discussion reminds me of the Racial Draft on the Dave Chappelle show. In which different races vied for different multi-racial celebrities to be categorized as a member of their race as opposed to another.

I will cede Henry James and T.S. Eliot to the English if the Russians allow us (the big U.S.) Nabokov.
 
Last edited:

Eric

Former Member
Promtbr: could you explain, in simple English, what you mean in #33? I am reasonably intelligent, but I don't understand a word of what you wrote there. You are trying to be too concise at the expense of sense.

As I've said, some of the greatest writers in the world fall between categories and are only pigeonholed in order to help librarians and bookshop staff find the books on the shelves.

Where, for instance, would you put copies of Leszek Kołakowski's books. He died yesterday. You can choose between history, philosophy, Marxism, and half a dozen more categories. As long as I can find his books in the shop or library, I don't care where they're stocked.

But my original argument is concise and simple: language is incredibly important to your identity. But while you yourself are a portable being, the country stays where it is, causing confusion.
 
Last edited:

hdw

Reader
As I've said, some of the greatest writers in the world fall between categories and are only pigeonholed in order to help librarians and bookshop staff find the books on the shelves.

I believe it was some time before Marina Lewycka's debut novel A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian found its rightful place on the fiction shelves of bookshops.

Harry
 

Julie

Reader
I'm hesitant to add anything myself because I really haven't read much, but I hope this discussion continues because it's something I'm really interested in. I just read a couple of weeks ago a book of essays by Kundera called The Curtain (tr. by Linda Asher from French to English). Simplifying it, the essays are about different aspects of the history of the novel. In one section of the second essay "Die Weltliteratur" he writes:

There are two basic contexts in which a work of art may be placed: either in the history of its nation (we can call this the small context), or else in the supranational history of its art (the large context). We are accustomed to seeing music quite naturally in the large context: knowing what language Orlando de Lassus or Bach spoke matters little to a musicologist, but because a novel is bound up with its language, in nearly every university in the world it is studied almost exclusively in the small, national context. Europe has not managed to view its literature as a historical unit, and I continue to insist that this is an irreparable intellectual loss. Because, if we consider just the history of the novel, it was to Rabelais that Laurence Sterne was reacting, it was Sterne who set off Diderot, it was from Cervantes that Fielding drew constant inspiration, it was against Fileding that Stendhal measured himself, it was Flaubert's tradition living on in Joyce, it was through his reflection on Joyce that Hermann Broch developed his own poetics of the novel, and it was Kafka who showed Carcia Marquez the possibility of departing
from tradition to "write another way."

What I just said, Goethe was the first to say: "National literature no longer means much these days, we are entering the era of Weltliteratur--....

And yet Rabelais, ever undervalued by his compatriots, was never better understood than by a Russian, Bakhtin; Dostoyevksy than by a Frenchman, Gide; Ibsen than by an Irishman, Shaw; Joyce than by an Austrian, Broch. The universal importance of the generation of great North Americans--Hemingway, Faulkner, Dos Passos--was first brought to light by French writers ("In France I'm the father of a literary movement," Faulkner wrote in 1946, complaining of the deaf ear he encountered in his own country). These few examples are not bizarre exceptions to the rule; no, they are the rule: geographic distance sets the observer back from the local context and allows him to embrace the large context of world literature, the only approach that can brin gout a novel's aesthetic value--that is to say: the previously unseen aspects of existence that this particular novel has managed ot make clear; the novelty of form it has found.

Do I mean by this that to judge a novel one can do without a knowledge of its original language? I do indeed mean exactly that! Gide did not know Russian, Shaw did not know Norwegian, Sartre did not read Dos Passos in the original. If the books of Witold Gombrowicz and Danilo Kis had depended solely on the judgement of people who read Polish and Serbo-Croatian, their radial aesthetic newness would never have been discovered....
So what does those categories even mean today? What is French, English, German, Spanish, etc. literature? specifically tied to those languages? I think most people are agreed it's not language equals country, but I don't really know that that sort of categorizing really has any value other than ease of reference.

And I tend to shelve my books via intution? feeling? like some authors can sit on shelves with others, but I can't really bring myself put some other ones together--which sometimes can make packing a bitch until I realize that I'm being ridiculous. The whole shelving thing reminds me of The House of Paper by Carlos Maria Dominquez... a good one for bibliophiles/bibliomainiacs. The character Carlos is obsessed with indexing his 10,000+ book collection (he has some convuluted method of who goes with what) and one day a floor or a fire, I can't remember, destroys his index and he disappears.
 

Liam

Administrator
threadlovercat.jpg


Although as always, I find myself in dishonorable disagreement, this time with the great Milan Kundera himself.

Do I mean by this that to judge a novel one can do without a knowledge of its original language? I do indeed mean exactly that! Gide did not know Russian, Shaw did not know Norwegian, Sartre did not read Dos Passos in the original.
Bullocks. Somebody HAD to know the original languages in question or else the books would never have been translated in the first place. When you're reading a translation, all you get is the "story."

The plot matters, of course, but so does language, and if you're not proficient in the language of the "original," so to speak, you lose centuries of linguistic history and richness that are tied to a particular culture. Of course it is better to have translations than nothing at all, but [dear Mr. Kundera] please don't make the claim that they are the same thing, or that "it doesn't matter." Because it DOES matter.

Excellent comment, Julie, and don't worry about being "under-read." As Colette said, everything's relative. As far as modern literature is concerned, I am shamefully under-read myself: doesn't shut ME up, now does it?
 

Eric

Former Member
Harry, pigeonholing Marina Lewycka would be fun:

1) German novel, because she was born in Kiel.

2) Sheffield novel as that's where she lives.

3) Peterborough novel, because that's where it's set.

4) Ukrainian novel, as that's its background.

Furthermore, what intrigues me about her name is that it is not really a perfect transliteration from Ukrainian (written in Cyrillic) but appears to ape a Polish-type spelling (Polish being written in our alphabet). Because it is pronounced leh-VITT-skah, not "levy car".

Julie, as Liam suggests, you don't have to know the original language for most prose texts. That what we bloody translators are for. Poetry can be trickier, as there is rhyme and rhythm involved. So a parallel text poetry collection is always a boon if you can read some of the original.

A great deal of very fine literary criticism has been done by people not reading novels in the original. But with poetry you have to be much more careful, as a lot more is at stake.

Even with prose, the language does matter, but without translation we would not even get an inkling of what the novel or story was about. Unless you are going to restrict yourself to novels written in English, which would be a pretty philistine thing to do, you have to accept that something gets lost in translation. But with a good, internationally understandable novel not all that much is lost.
 
Last edited:
Top