Marieke Lucas Rijneveld quits as translator of Amanda Gorman's poems after criticism of using a white translator

This is a few days old; Friday I think, but many new articles appeared only today. An example is the Guardian article linked below. Dozens of others online if you do a quick search.


Admins/mods: feel free to move this to the "translation forum" or any other you feel is more appropriate.
 

tiganeasca

Moderator
According to the article, Gorman herself selected Rijneveld to translate her work. Who is Janice Deul to veto the author's own choice?
 

Americanreader

Well-known member
I agree. I'm very much not a fan of Gorman's work, (the praise for her kind of makes me feel like I'm going insane) or of slam poetry more generally, but if Gorman chose Rijneveld, she must see something in her translation style.
 

nagisa

Spiky member
I am about as close to the fever dream of an SJW as a right-winger can have, and this seems a bit excessive even to me. Gorman herself chose them! (though, is she qualified to speak as to the quality of their translation to Dutch... the argument can be made)
 
Last edited:

Bartleby

Moderator
I am about as close to the fever dream of an SJW as a right-winger can have, and this seems a bit excessive even to me. Gorman herself chose her! (though, is she qualified to speak as to the quality of her translation... the argument can be made)
Chose they, you mean?

just teasing :p

There’s a quote in the article that’s particularly priceless - one of the naysayers asking for a translator who, like Gorman, is “unapologetically Black”. What does that even freaking mean ??
 

nagisa

Spiky member
Chose they, you mean?

just teasing :p

There’s a quote in the article that’s particularly priceless - one of the naysayers asking for a translator who, like Gorman, is “unapologetically Black”. What does that even freaking mean ??
Chose them indeed. Mea culpa! and corrected

Unapologetically Black, in the American context, means clearly and deliberately using elements of Afro-American culture, usually denigrated (a very pregnant etymology there...) by mainstream "white" American culture until it can be commodified and sanitized. (Think of rap and the turning point Eminem represented)
 

Liam

Administrator
...until it can be commodified and sanitized...
SNL did a hilarious parody once with Leslie Jones and Reese Witherspoon (?) where Leslie had to resort to her "Inner White Girl" in order to get anything done (like withdraw money from the bank, etc). The point they were trying to make (albeit via satire) was somewhat similar--that you can't just "be" black in America without having this cloud of mistrust hanging over you at all times.
 

Liam

Administrator
^Found it, :)

Dunno if the copyright is "USA-only"; I've been told by some of my European friends that they can't watch some of the YouTube videos I send them because of copyright issues, ?

 

nagisa

Spiky member
SNL did a hilarious parody once with Leslie Jones and Reese Witherspoon (?) where Leslie had to resort to her "Inner White Girl" in order to get anything done (like withdraw money from the bank, etc). The point they were trying to make (albeit via satire) was somewhat similar--that you can't just "be" black in America without having this cloud of mistrust hanging over you at all times.
Indeed, and over literary production by Black people. This is touched on several of the books I review briefly in my post on recently finished books (Morrison, Baldwin, Ngugi, Walker...)
 

nagisa

Spiky member
^Found it, :)

Dunno if the copyright is "USA-only"; I've been told by some of my European friends that they can't watch some of the YouTube videos I send them because of copyright issues, ?

Unsubtle (but that is her brand of humor) XD
 

Cleanthess

Dinanukht wannabe
A few years ago something similar happened in Brazil when a great black singer, Fabiana Cozza was chosen by Ivone Lara, a great black singer-songwriter of an earlier generation, to be the actress to play her on stage, since they were friends and respected each other's work.

Below you can see both on stage. The level of outrage triggered by a light skinned black singer daring to represent her friend, a dark skinned black singer, was astounding. Fabiana dropped out of the project. Listen to her and Maria Bethania singing Dona Ivone Lara's wonderful Alguém Me Avisou

1*F-_8F581TQ0EBFKmcUNsOw.jpeg
 
At the risk of sounding racist...how many black Dutch translators are there?
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. They should have stuck up for themself but how shocked can they be by the reaction in this amazingly divisive world. Or is that just the USA?
 

JCamilo

Reader
This is not even the point. The chance that someone is pointing at the right direction (yeah, sure diversity, representativity, how many africans actually have oportunity to became translators, watsoever) does not imply they are taking the better road to get in there.
 

Liam

Administrator
The Netherlands may actually have (proportionally to its population) a sizable number of black immigrants as well as descendants of immigrants from all over the world. What bothers me is exactly the same question you asked: what about the "smaller"-sized languages like Icelandic or Latvian? Are we going to expect only black translators to be translating black writers now, and if we can't find one, then perhaps the writer ought not to be translated at all?

Recently there was an outcry over Scarlett Johansson signing on to play a trans character whereas the actress herself is a cis-gendered female. Scarlett subsequently abandoned the role; and the film, whatever it was, lost a world-class performer who, despite not being trans, could have brought a lot of nuanced depth to the role. (Forgive me, but isn't that what acting is ultimately about? Transforming yourself into something you are not, and doing so as believably as possible? Cf. Meryl Streep in Angels in America, where she plays, in turn, a Jewish rabbi, a sexually repressed Mormon mother to an equally repressed gay son, and the very real historical personage of Ethel Rosenberg.)

If the above kerfuffle works for acting, why not writing? Should trans authors ONLY have trans translators (pun intended)?

I've neither the time nor the interest to read either Amanda Gorman or Marieke Rijneveld so perhaps I'm not the best person to assess the situation, but these are just my two cents. Observing, as it were, from the side-wings.
 
Here are two poems. One from each poet.

Marieke Lucas Rijneveld
Grief Eaters
Translated by Sarah Timmer Harvey

While one has never known what makes him
morose, the other is 
morose because of everything
he knows and wishes he didn’t, I sit 
here on my
mattress in the late afternoon with bubble solution
in my 
hands, see in every soapy bubble myself
mirrored and then shattered, 
there are so many
versions of my being, but not one that lingers.

Beside me is an open diary and between some of the
pages are 
silverfish that come not after moisture,
but for the grief. A question: 
can you search for a
father figure if you’ve never had a role model, if 

hankering is mistaken for approval? A figure that
can be outlined on 
a piece of paper: Papa has been
searching for a daughter for years, 
when he sees me,
he sees only the contours and descriptions of the
ideal measurements.

But just like crayons these add colour and say
nothing about what 
fills it, words, touches. Page
three April 2007, my first kiss with a real 
man,
pertinent discoveries; tonguing is something other
than rolling 
honey drops around your mouth, and
mama’s de-worming drink 
does nothing for the
tingling in my underbelly.

Once saliva had been exchanged, I seemed suddenly
two heads taller, 
as though I had drawn him inside
to form a part of my mind, hey 
Sweetiesweet I
thought often, but never said. I dreamt of the sea
and 
of his blue eyes, how clichéd and not even blue
enough to write home 
about or have anything in
common with a lake in France, just a t-shirt 
that’s
been too often through the wash.

Silverfish are wriggling over a photo of him that has
yellowed from 
the long nights I lit it beneath my
blankets with a torch, my mouth pressed against my
forearm and moving around, thinking of an ice 

cream but without the cream, just a cone, hollow
enough to push your 
tongue inside so that no one
could see you were practicing, boiling days.

Papa says that practice bears perfection and I think
if I keep my arms 
separated and wide apart that one
day a daughter will come out of me. 
I would then
wake him and whisper: practice bore a daughter,
now you 
try for a father. I’d lay my head between his
hands where I once 
perfectly fit, for a moment
forgetting that in every touch doubt lives

just as all bubbles hide a breath and an
afterthought. If I could only 
make detergent from
my grief, open my window and blow all worries 
out
into the city, just fly I would call – and wish them all
the best, 
watch them leaving damp patches behind
and everyone will think it 
has been raining; indeed,
it has been raining and now it is dry.

Amanda Gorman

The Hill We Climb

When day comes we ask ourselves,
where can we find light in this never-ending shade?
The loss we carry,
a sea we must wade
We've braved the belly of the beast
We've learned that quiet isn't always peace
And the norms and notions
of what just is
Isn’t always just-ice
And yet the dawn is ours
before we knew it
Somehow we do it
Somehow we've weathered and witnessed
a nation that isn’t broken
but simply unfinished
We the successors of a country and a time
Where a skinny Black girl
descended from slaves and raised by a single mother
can dream of becoming president
only to find herself reciting for one
And yes we are far from polished
far from pristine
but that doesn’t mean we are
striving to form a union that is perfect
We are striving to forge a union with purpose
To compose a country committed to all cultures, colors, characters and
conditions of man
And so we lift our gazes not to what stands between us
but what stands before us
We close the divide because we know, to put our future first,
we must first put our differences aside
We lay down our arms
so we can reach out our arms
to one another
We seek harm to none and harmony for all
Let the globe, if nothing else, say this is true:
That even as we grieved, we grew
That even as we hurt, we hoped
That even as we tired, we tried
That we’ll forever be tied together, victorious
Not because we will never again know defeat
but because we will never again sow division
Scripture tells us to envision
that everyone shall sit under their own vine and fig tree
And no one shall make them afraid
If we’re to live up to our own time
Then victory won’t lie in the blade
But in all the bridges we’ve made
That is the promised glade
The hill we climb
If only we dare
It's because being American is more than a pride we inherit,
it’s the past we step into
and how we repair it
We’ve seen a force that would shatter our nation
rather than share it
Would destroy our country if it meant delaying democracy
And this effort very nearly succeeded
But while democracy can be periodically delayed
it can never be permanently defeated
In this truth
in this faith we trust
For while we have our eyes on the future
history has its eyes on us
This is the era of just redemption
We feared at its inception
We did not feel prepared to be the heirs
of such a terrifying hour
but within it we found the power
to author a new chapter
To offer hope and laughter to ourselves
So while once we asked,
how could we possibly prevail over catastrophe?
Now we assert
How could catastrophe possibly prevail over us?
We will not march back to what was
but move to what shall be
A country that is bruised but whole,
benevolent but bold,
fierce and free
We will not be turned around
or interrupted by intimidation
because we know our inaction and inertia
will be the inheritance of the next generation
Our blunders become their burdens
But one thing is certain:
If we merge mercy with might,
and might with right,
then love becomes our legacy
and change our children’s birthright
So let us leave behind a country
better than the one we were left with
Every breath from my bronze-pounded chest,
we will raise this wounded world into a wondrous one
We will rise from the gold-limbed hills of the west,
we will rise from the windswept northeast
where our forefathers first realized revolution
We will rise from the lake-rimmed cities of the midwestern states,
we will rise from the sunbaked south
We will rebuild, reconcile and recover
and every known nook of our nation and
every corner called our country,
our people diverse and beautiful will emerge,
battered and beautiful
When day comes we step out of the shade,
aflame and unafraid
The new dawn blooms as we free it
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it
If only we’re brave enough to be it


I like this one stanza of Marieke Lucas poem:

Papa says that practice bears perfection and I think
if I keep my arms 
separated and wide apart that one
day a daughter will come out of me. 
I would then
wake him and whisper: practice bore a daughter,
now you 
try for a father. I’d lay my head between his
hands where I once 
perfectly fit, for a moment
forgetting that in every touch doubt lives.

The other is sincere, corny, juvenalia appropriate to the occasion for which it was written. I must admit, it choked me up when Gorman read it at the inauguration.
 
Last edited:

nagisa

Spiky member
The Netherlands may actually have (proportionally to its population) a sizable number of black immigrants as well as descendants of immigrants from all over the world. What bothers me is exactly the same question you asked: what about the "smaller"-sized languages like Icelandic or Latvian? Are we going to expect only black translators to be translating black writers now, and if we can't find one, then perhaps the writer ought not to be translated at all?

Recently there was an outcry over Scarlett Johansson signing on to play a trans character whereas the actress herself is a cis-gendered female. Scarlett subsequently abandoned the role; and the film, whatever it was, lost a world-class performer who, despite not being trans, could have brought a lot of nuanced depth to the role. (Forgive me, but isn't that what acting is ultimately about? Transforming yourself into something you are not, and doing so as believably as possible? Cf. Meryl Streep in Angels in America, where she plays, in turn, a Jewish rabbi, a sexually repressed Mormon mother to an equally repressed gay son, and the very real historical personage of Ethel Rosenberg.)

If the above kerfuffle works for acting, why not writing? Should trans authors ONLY have trans translators (pun intended)?

I've neither the time nor the interest to read either Amanda Gorman or Marieke Rijneveld so perhaps I'm not the best person to assess the situation, but these are just my two cents. Observing, as it were, from the side-wings.
Deul, the Dutch activist, says in her piece (which I google-translated from Dutch) is that "a Black woman with a background in spoken-word poetry" may be the better choice; and I'm going to try to be even-handed here.

First, Rijneveld was most likely chosen on the coattails of their Booker to do the translation job, which doesn't seem to be something they've done before (they're a poet/novelist, not a translator). And they definitely don't have a background in spoken-word poetry. So, going off professional qualifications, Rijneveld doesn't look like the best choice, and Deul gives a half-dozen names that could replace them.

Second, the racial aspect. I want to stress that it's brought up not purely on phenotypical grounds, and such arguments almost never are (and when they are they are bad, full stop). The point of bringing it up is because it is a lived experience which coincides with that background in this particular type of poetry. (Would Deul have groused if a white spoken-word poet had been given the job? Perhaps, but she would have had a bit less of a leg to stand on, in my opinion; though racist exclusion is certainly very much a thing).

That's why the slippery slope arguments fails, to me. This is about inclusion, widening the circle to people who have been and still are excluded, not wanting to keep people in their phenotypical lanes.

But the point about shared lived experience goes deeper, as it provides a degree of resonance with the work that someone who does not have that shared experience would not have, and perhaps bring through inaccurately (which is especially damaging for, as mentioned, historically excluded voices). You bring up Johansson and what may have been lost when she stepped down from playing a trans woman; I counter with Pacino and the laughable and harmful portrayal he gave of a gay man in Cruising. And if the point is to widen the circle, Johansson is already at its centre; why not let a trans person in? I've linked a good video on the topic of representation by those directly concerned here, which takes up the Johansson case.

I truly do try to have a nuanced position on this. I am reminded of an essay in the Morrison collection I've read, where she talks about the importance of herself, a Black woman writing a story about and for Black women; and in the same breath, telling students she had to ignore the advice to "write what you know best" (ie yourself), and write imagining themselves as someone radically other (race, class, gender). On the one hand, the concern for the authentic, rooted experience; on the other, radical imagination and embrace of otherness to still speak true. It's an incredibly fine line, but given the way it's been mishandled for a long time (privileged others who don't speak true), perhaps correction is in order for a while at least.
 

nagisa

Spiky member
(Also, I think that there are different discussions being conflated here: translation, creative writing, representation on film. So the arguments would have to be modulated. Not sure whether the Council of Geeks video I linked specifically touches on that, but they do in others, IIRC)
 

Liam

Administrator
I counter with Pacino and the laughable and harmful portrayal he gave of a gay man in Cruising
He made up for it as Roy Cohn in A.I.A.-->TOTALLY believable! ?

I do agree about Rijneveld possibly being a bad choice purely on linguistic grounds, though again, I will reserve judgement as I'm not familiar with either one of these two authors.

The response, the counter-response, and the counter-counter-response, as seen in this thread, have more to do, I think, with the sensational headline from the Guardian which, never mind linguistic subtlety, DOES cast the entire situation in racial terms: "white translator quits" "anger that a black writer was not hired," etc, which I find riddled with soundbites. Leave it to pedestrian journalism to discuss serious issues, ?
 

nagisa

Spiky member
Clickbait journalism and headlines don't help, certainly, but I think these are important conversations to have nonetheless, if only to be not entirely dismissive of what, under the surface, is actually a very nuanced issue.
 
Top