Slavery and Western Capitalism

umbrarchist

Member
This is unusual in that it got a bad review from The Economist. Then they retracted it and apologized.

EB_HalfUntold.jpg
It goes into great detail about things normally shoved under the rug in America.

I got the paper book from the library.

Reading a paper book is just so...so.. PRIMITIVE!
 

tiganeasca

Moderator
This is unusual in that it got a bad review from The Economist. Then they retracted it and apologized.

View attachment 2082
It goes into great detail about things normally shoved under the rug in America.

I got the paper book from the library.

Reading a paper book is just so...so.. PRIMITIVE!
1. The book looks pretty interesting. Although the argument doesn't sound like anything new, it is clearly a story that bears telling since most Americans don't know the central role of slavery in the creation of a national economy.

2. It's also worth noting that the book was published almost 10 years ago.

3. I'm baffled; why is this posted on this particular thread, though?
 

Benny Profane

Well-known member
This is unusual in that it got a bad review from The Economist. Then they retracted it and apologized.

View attachment 2082
It goes into great detail about things normally shoved under the rug in America.

I got the paper book from the library.

Reading a paper book is just so...so.. PRIMITIVE!
Taking the opportunity, have you read "Time on The Cross: The Economics of American of Negro Slavery" by Robert Fogel, Nobel Prize Laureate in Economics?
Have you heard about him?
 
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umbrarchist

Member
Taking the opportunity, have you read "Time on The Cross: The Economics of American of Negro Slavery" by Robert Fogel, Nobel Prize Laureate in Economics?
Have you heard about him?
First of all, I never heard of it. That is one of the problems with this planet, there are too damn many books. And then most of them are not worth the time, in my rarely humble opinion.

Second, there is no Nobel Prize in Economics. The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics was created by some Swedish bank in the 60s not Alfred Nobel.

Third, I have made a "hobby" of Economics since I read the book, The Screwing of the Average Man by David Hapgood. That book convinced me that there was something wrong with economics so I pulled out my Samuelson's Economics from college intending to read it cover to cover if necessary.

Economists do not talk about NDP, Net Domestic Product. They only subtract the depreciation of capital goods, but the Laws of Physics cannot tell the difference between capital and consumer goods. So ignoring the depreciation of consumer automobiles and other consumer goods since WWII and not talking about Planned Obsolescence is a Big Lie. The economics profession is screwing us.
 
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tiganeasca

Moderator
Fogel and Engerman's Time on the Cross came out in 1974 or 1975 when I was starting grad school in American history. I still remember that it made a huge impression on the field. It argued--really for the first time--that slavery made economic sense and that it was not the backward institution (economically speaking) that it had often been considered to be. Their work draw heavily on quantitative methods to show that, far from disappearing, slavery was rational (again, speaking in economic terms). It was a turning point in the historiography of slavery and is still, nearly 50 years later, a very important work. Although it's drawn significant criticism, as usually happens with major works, it has largely held up despite the criticism.
 

Leemo

Well-known member
Fogel and Engerman's Time on the Cross came out in 1974 or 1975 when I was starting grad school in American history. I still remember that it made a huge impression on the field. It argued--really for the first time--that slavery made economic sense and that it was not the backward institution (economically speaking) that it had often been considered to be. Their work draw heavily on quantitative methods to show that, far from disappearing, slavery was rational (again, speaking in economic terms). It was a turning point in the historiography of slavery and is still, nearly 50 years later, a very important work. Although it's drawn significant criticism, as usually happens with major works, it has largely held up despite the criticism.
Perhaps I've missed the point, but I find it funny to think the economics field pre-1974 thought slavery made no "economic" sense. Of course free labour would be rational, from an "economical", "quantitative" perspective. That's why life is such crap when we do whats best for the economy instead of what's best for humans, which sadly continues very much to this day and shows little signs of changing.
 

tiganeasca

Moderator
Many, but not all, historians of the South had believed that slavery hamstrung the South economically, resulting in its falling farther and farther behind the industrializing North. They argued that slavery was doomed to collapse on its own because it didn't make economic sense and, therefore, that the Civil War was not inevitable.

There is a nice summary and retrospective analysis of the work, its conclusions, and its impact here.
 

Leseratte

Well-known member
Many, but not all, historians of the South had believed that slavery hamstrung the South economically, resulting in its falling farther and farther behind the industrializing North. They argued that slavery was doomed to collapse on its own because it didn't make economic sense and, therefore, that the Civil War was not inevitable.

There is a nice summary and retrospective analysis of the work, its conclusions, and its impact here.
Thanks, Tiga. Just posted it on another thread in another forum, where we are posting about Gone with the Wind.
 
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umbrarchist

Member
Thanks, Tiga. Just posted it on another thread, where we are posting about Gone with the Wind.
I have never even watched the movie! I have probably seen short clips from it dozens if not hundreds of times.

"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

There is a thread on it but it is old:

 
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Leemo

Well-known member
Many, but not all, historians of the South had believed that slavery hamstrung the South economically, resulting in its falling farther and farther behind the industrializing North. They argued that slavery was doomed to collapse on its own because it didn't make economic sense and, therefore, that the Civil War was not inevitable.

There is a nice summary and retrospective analysis of the work, its conclusions, and its impact here.
Interesting! I'm not educated nor familiar with the topic, but if I were to hypothesize about why the North might have a better economy than the South, the idea that too much of the South's labour was unpaid would be one of the last reasons I would think of
 

Benny Profane

Well-known member
Perhaps I've missed the point, but I find it funny to think the economics field pre-1974 thought slavery made no "economic" sense. Of course free labour would be rational, from an "economical", "quantitative" perspective. That's why life is such crap when we do whats best for the economy instead of what's best for humans, which sadly continues very much to this day and shows little signs of changing.

In Economics, when we say "Rationality", we mean "the possibility of human cooperation with the minimal effort and the maximum satisfaction". And yes, by this perspective, slavery and free trade are the same thing and make any sense.

Of course, the point of view of Fogel and Engerman is biased by a capitalist/conservative perspective from Chicago School of Economics, but this isn't the subject approached that. They approached that historical facts could be interpreted by simulations of data analysis based on Rational Expectatives (minimal costs and maximum yield). Alongside with Douglass North, Fogel and Engerman had laid the foundations of Cliometrics, a new field in Economics.
On the other hand, there are two Economic historians (Joel Mokyr and Avner Greif) that don't agree with this point and proposed that we couldn't simulate the History based on graphics and data analysis.

Fogel and Engerman's Time on the Cross came out in 1974 or 1975 when I was starting grad school in American history. I still remember that it made a huge impression on the field. It argued--really for the first time--that slavery made economic sense and that it was not the backward institution (economically speaking) that it had often been considered to be. Their work draw heavily on quantitative methods to show that, far from disappearing, slavery was rational (again, speaking in economic terms). It was a turning point in the historiography of slavery and is still, nearly 50 years later, a very important work. Although it's drawn significant criticism, as usually happens with major works, it has largely held up despite the criticism.
Great explanation.

I quoted your point, my dear @tiganeasca, because I'd like to point a little thing: even this book being a classic, a true masterpiece and a contribution for Fogel's Nobel (and knowing that the SA forgot to laureate Engerman -- another incosequence of SA :rolleyes:), this point of view doesn't make any sense in Brazil because the mecanisms of slavery were different here.
So, I agree with them about their analysis on History, but it couldn't be applied here.

Taking the opportunity, what are your perceptions about "Factor Endowments" theory? Are you familiarized with it?
First of all, I never heard of it. That is one of the problems with this planet, there are too damn many books. And then most of them are not worth the time, in my rarely humble opinion.

Second, there is no Nobel Prize in Economics. The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics was created by some Swedish bank in the 60s not Alfred Nobel.

Third, I have made a "hobby" of Economics since I read the book, The Screwing of the Average Man by David Hapgood. That book convinced me that there was something wrong with economics so I pulled out my Samuelson's Economics from college intending to read it cover to cover if necessary.

Economists do not talk about NDP, Net Domestic Product. They only subtract the depreciation of capital goods, but the Laws of Physics cannot tell the difference between capital and consumer goods. So ignoring the depreciation of consumer automobiles and other consumer goods since WWII and not talking about Planned Obsolescence is a Big Lie. The economics profession is screwing us.

Yes. Prize in Economics Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel or something like else or Prize for Professors of Chicago School of Economics. LOL.

Samuelson and his Economics! I need to read it again!!!
His co-author, William Nordhaus, won "this prize" too. :)

Well, I promise that I don't ask you again, but what are your impressions about Thomas Sowell? Have you read him? Thank you in advance.
 
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umbrarchist

Member
Well, I promise that I don't ask you again, but what are your impressions about Thomas Sowell? Have you read him? Thank you in advance.
I am a techy not a liberal arts/humanities guy.

I dropped out of electrical engineering intending to go back in a year or two, but fixing hi-fi equipment was way more FUN and then I switched to computers and IBM.

While I was fixing hi-fi I read The Screwing of the Average Man by David Hapgood. I got to see and tear apart the consumer garbage most people buy. That is why depreciation of durable consumer goods is glaringly obvious to me.

Thomas Sowell? I have his Basic Economics 4th and 5th editions on my smartphone.

"After the war was over, there was a tremendous increase in the production of cars, refrigerators, housing, and other parts of the nation’s accumulated stock of wealth which had been allowed to wear down or wear out while production was being devoted to urgent wartime purposes. The durable equipment of consumers declined in real value between 1944 and 1945, the last year of the war and then more than doubled in real value over the next five years, as the nation's stock of durable assets that had been depleted during the war was replenished. This was an unprecedented rate of growth." - Thomas Sowell

That paragraph is identical in the 4th and 5th editions of Sowell's Basic Economics. He admits to the occurance of 'depreciation' in consumer durables but never uses that word. The Great Depression followed by WWII followed by the Great Acceleration has given us today's world. But the depreciation of all of the consumer junk produced since WWII is being ignored. Notice he called them "durable assets". The C02 from producing all of the junk is still in the atmosphere.

TS.BasicEconWC.jpg

Euro-American economic theory has ignored demand side depreciation since WWII. NDP does not get much mention.

The economy is an economic power game that most people are not supposed to know how to play. In Wealth of Nations Adam Smith wrote "read, write and account" multiple times. Smith used the word 'education' Eighty Times. The US should have made accounting/finance mandatory in the schools since Sputnik. I use that because it was a technological event and economists seem to be technologically illiterate.

If I was an alien watching this planet I would find economists ignoring the depreciation of all of the technology that consumers buy hilarious. Then humans want to complain about CO2, pollution and the economy!? ROFLMBAO

Oh, and of course I am "acting white" because I find science and technology interesting. LOL

I read Sowell's The Economics and Politics of Race a long time ago. I wasn't impressed at the time but I can't remember enough to have a specific complaint.
 
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Leseratte

Well-known member
I have never even watched the movie! I have probably seen short clips from it dozens if not hundreds of times.

"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

There is a thread on it but it is old:

Sorry @umbrarchist, I forgot to add that the thread is on another forum. I have now corrected the information.
I just read the thread you added. Everyone adored the story, no one noticed its problems.
 
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Leemo

Well-known member
In Economics, when we say "Rationality", we mean "the possibility of human cooperation with the minimal effort and the maximum satisfaction". And yes, by this perspective, slavery and free trade are the same thing and make any sense.

Of course, the point of view of Fogel and Engerman is biased by a capitalist/conservative perspective from Chicago School of Economics, but this isn't the subject approached that. They approached that historical facts could be interpreted by simulations of data analysis based on Rational Expectatives (minimal costs and maximum yield). Alongside with Douglass North, Fogel and Engerman had laid the foundations of Cliometrics, a new field in Economics.
On the other hand, there are two Economic historians (Joel Mokyr and Avner Greif) that don't agree with this point and proposed that we couldn't simulate the History based on graphics and data analysis.
If economic "Rationality" includes "human cooperation" as a tenet, would that not imply any economic system that allows for slavery to be ipso facto an irrational economic system, for slavery is the absence of "human cooperation"?
 

Benny Profane

Well-known member
If economic "Rationality" includes "human cooperation" as a tenet, would that not imply any economic system that allows for slavery to be ipso facto an irrational economic system, for slavery is the absence of "human cooperation"?
Absolutely.
The model of "Rational Homo-Economicus" is an abstraction of reality and criticized by some great Economics such as marxist economists (Samuel Bowles, Herbert Gints etc), Austrian School of Economics (Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich von Hayek, etc), Carneggie-Mellon School (Herbert Simon, Allen Newell, etc), Virginia School (Ronald Coase, Gordon Tullock, James Buchanan, etc) and many others
for example.
Marxist theorists proposed the "Super-Structure Theory of History on Microeconomy", the Austrian School "Praxeology", Carneggie-Mellon School "Bounded Rationality" and Virginia School "Public Choice Theory and Transaction Costs".

And the slavery doesn't represent any forms of human cooperation in a "rational way", of course.
 

umbrarchist

Member
And great post, @umbrarchist !!!
Thank you again!
It would probably make more sense to call economics an "obsession" than a "hobby". It is like picking at a scab. Once I notice something that does not make sense I can't leave it alone.

I just went on YouTube and searched for videos on Net Domestic Product. There are some out there, but when have you ever heard an economist mention it on a talk show or news program? Then the equation is wrong since consumer depreciation is ignored.

I am in The Matrix because this is not possible in reality. LOL

GDP == Grossly Distorted Propaganda
 
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umbrarchist

Member

A SLAVE IS A SLAVE​

BY H. BEAM PIPER​


Novels could sure be short back then. Now we are cursed by word processing software.

There are a significant number of SF books that center on this subject of slavery.

It is also part of the plot to the Honor Harrington series by David Weber.
 
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