1. The book looks pretty interesting. Although the argument doesn't sound like anything new, it is clearly a story that bears telling since most Americans don't know the central role of slavery in the creation of a national economy.This is unusual in that it got a bad review from The Economist. Then they retracted it and apologized.
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It goes into great detail about things normally shoved under the rug in America.
I got the paper book from the library.
Reading a paper book is just so...so.. PRIMITIVE!
Taking the opportunity, have you read "Time on The Cross: The Economics of American of Negro Slavery" by Robert Fogel, Nobel Prize Laureate in Economics?This is unusual in that it got a bad review from The Economist. Then they retracted it and apologized.
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It goes into great detail about things normally shoved under the rug in America.
I got the paper book from the library.
Reading a paper book is just so...so.. PRIMITIVE!
Actually I looked through titles of threads 3 times, I did not see anything that seemed especially appropriate .3. I'm baffled; why is this posted on this particular thread, though?
First of all, I never heard of it. That is one of the problems with this planet, there are too damn many books. And then most of them are not worth the time, in my rarely humble opinion.Taking the opportunity, have you read "Time on The Cross: The Economics of American of Negro Slavery" by Robert Fogel, Nobel Prize Laureate in Economics?
Have you heard about him?
Perhaps I've missed the point, but I find it funny to think the economics field pre-1974 thought slavery made no "economic" sense. Of course free labour would be rational, from an "economical", "quantitative" perspective. That's why life is such crap when we do whats best for the economy instead of what's best for humans, which sadly continues very much to this day and shows little signs of changing.Fogel and Engerman's Time on the Cross came out in 1974 or 1975 when I was starting grad school in American history. I still remember that it made a huge impression on the field. It argued--really for the first time--that slavery made economic sense and that it was not the backward institution (economically speaking) that it had often been considered to be. Their work draw heavily on quantitative methods to show that, far from disappearing, slavery was rational (again, speaking in economic terms). It was a turning point in the historiography of slavery and is still, nearly 50 years later, a very important work. Although it's drawn significant criticism, as usually happens with major works, it has largely held up despite the criticism.
Thanks, Tiga. Just posted it on another thread in another forum, where we are posting about Gone with the Wind.Many, but not all, historians of the South had believed that slavery hamstrung the South economically, resulting in its falling farther and farther behind the industrializing North. They argued that slavery was doomed to collapse on its own because it didn't make economic sense and, therefore, that the Civil War was not inevitable.
There is a nice summary and retrospective analysis of the work, its conclusions, and its impact here.
I have never even watched the movie! I have probably seen short clips from it dozens if not hundreds of times.Thanks, Tiga. Just posted it on another thread, where we are posting about Gone with the Wind.
Interesting! I'm not educated nor familiar with the topic, but if I were to hypothesize about why the North might have a better economy than the South, the idea that too much of the South's labour was unpaid would be one of the last reasons I would think ofMany, but not all, historians of the South had believed that slavery hamstrung the South economically, resulting in its falling farther and farther behind the industrializing North. They argued that slavery was doomed to collapse on its own because it didn't make economic sense and, therefore, that the Civil War was not inevitable.
There is a nice summary and retrospective analysis of the work, its conclusions, and its impact here.
Perhaps I've missed the point, but I find it funny to think the economics field pre-1974 thought slavery made no "economic" sense. Of course free labour would be rational, from an "economical", "quantitative" perspective. That's why life is such crap when we do whats best for the economy instead of what's best for humans, which sadly continues very much to this day and shows little signs of changing.
Great explanation.Fogel and Engerman's Time on the Cross came out in 1974 or 1975 when I was starting grad school in American history. I still remember that it made a huge impression on the field. It argued--really for the first time--that slavery made economic sense and that it was not the backward institution (economically speaking) that it had often been considered to be. Their work draw heavily on quantitative methods to show that, far from disappearing, slavery was rational (again, speaking in economic terms). It was a turning point in the historiography of slavery and is still, nearly 50 years later, a very important work. Although it's drawn significant criticism, as usually happens with major works, it has largely held up despite the criticism.
First of all, I never heard of it. That is one of the problems with this planet, there are too damn many books. And then most of them are not worth the time, in my rarely humble opinion.
Second, there is no Nobel Prize in Economics. The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics was created by some Swedish bank in the 60s not Alfred Nobel.
Third, I have made a "hobby" of Economics since I read the book, The Screwing of the Average Man by David Hapgood. That book convinced me that there was something wrong with economics so I pulled out my Samuelson's Economics from college intending to read it cover to cover if necessary.
Economists do not talk about NDP, Net Domestic Product. They only subtract the depreciation of capital goods, but the Laws of Physics cannot tell the difference between capital and consumer goods. So ignoring the depreciation of consumer automobiles and other consumer goods since WWII and not talking about Planned Obsolescence is a Big Lie. The economics profession is screwing us.
I am a techy not a liberal arts/humanities guy.Well, I promise that I don't ask you again, but what are your impressions about Thomas Sowell? Have you read him? Thank you in advance.
Sorry @umbrarchist, I forgot to add that the thread is on another forum. I have now corrected the information.I have never even watched the movie! I have probably seen short clips from it dozens if not hundreds of times.
"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."
There is a thread on it but it is old:
Margaret Mitchell: Gone With The Wind
I was surprised that i couldn't find a thread on this!! Gone with the Wind, published on June 30, 1936, is a romantic novel and the only novel written by Margaret Mitchell. The story is set in Jonesboro and Atlanta, Georgia during the American Civil War and Reconstruction and follows the life...www.worldliteratureforum.com
If economic "Rationality" includes "human cooperation" as a tenet, would that not imply any economic system that allows for slavery to be ipso facto an irrational economic system, for slavery is the absence of "human cooperation"?In Economics, when we say "Rationality", we mean "the possibility of human cooperation with the minimal effort and the maximum satisfaction". And yes, by this perspective, slavery and free trade are the same thing and make any sense.
Of course, the point of view of Fogel and Engerman is biased by a capitalist/conservative perspective from Chicago School of Economics, but this isn't the subject approached that. They approached that historical facts could be interpreted by simulations of data analysis based on Rational Expectatives (minimal costs and maximum yield). Alongside with Douglass North, Fogel and Engerman had laid the foundations of Cliometrics, a new field in Economics.
On the other hand, there are two Economic historians (Joel Mokyr and Avner Greif) that don't agree with this point and proposed that we couldn't simulate the History based on graphics and data analysis.
Absolutely.If economic "Rationality" includes "human cooperation" as a tenet, would that not imply any economic system that allows for slavery to be ipso facto an irrational economic system, for slavery is the absence of "human cooperation"?
It would probably make more sense to call economics an "obsession" than a "hobby". It is like picking at a scab. Once I notice something that does not make sense I can't leave it alone.And great post, @umbrarchist !!!
Thank you again!
So what is the forum? Link?Sorry @umbrarchist, I forgot to add that the thread is on another forum. I have now corrected the information.
I just read the thread you added. Everyone adored the story, no one noticed its problems.