Undeserving Laureates

Eric

Former Member
Re: The Nobel Prize

Just let's remember that these 18 Swedes, some of whom are a little too old to be effective arbiters, have to choose from among a vast number of living contemporary authors (they are lucky the rest are dead!), and find someone who crosses the boundaries of nationality and language and has something to say to the whole world.

Given the fact that these Swedish intellectuals don't actually read 25 languages each, the whole process hinges hugely on translation.

Imagine if the Nobel prize had to rely mostly on what is available in English. The list of hopefuls would soon be greatly narrowed down. If about between 25% and 60% of books in many European countries (e.g. Sweden) are translations, and Britain and the USA only have 3% apiece, how on Earth would candidates be judged fairly?

The Nobel judges do, of course, have a network of advisors and people who propose these advisors. These are academics and translators. But again, a process of choice and filtering means that if there is only one leading expert on a particular smallish literature (e.g. for Armenian, Berber or Thai) living in Europe or the USA, that person becomes very powerful and can make or break an author's reputation from any particular language area.

These Swedes on the Nobel committee are not all linguists themselves. And the only foreign language many of them can read is... English. Maybe a few can read German, French or Spanish (and naturally Norwegian and Danish), and there's one man in his 80s who can read Chinese. But English will be the main language they rely on. The very language which tends to ignore translations!

How are they going to make fair global choices? Because the very fact they will probably have to commission translations into Swedish or English slows down the process, and runs the risk of a good writer being excluded by a poor and hastily cobbled together translation of one of his novels, when he's actually written fifteen, only eight of which are Nobel material.

In an ideal world, all 15 of his novels would be examined before any prize is awarded. Does this happen with the Nobel? Once the Nobel judges start commissioning translations of work by a particular author, that very fact is already filtering out dozens of other authors from the competition.

Translation is the kingpin of the Nobel. Let's never forget that.
 

waalkwriter

Reader
Re: The Nobel Prize

Are you involved with the Nobel? I'd imagine there is not that large a pool of experts on Estonian literature. Are you as partisan as other Estonians I've known on the fact that Jaan Kross never won a Nobel?
 

Daniel del Real

Moderator
Re: The Nobel Prize

Aw man, DB, you should read my post. I mentioned that precisely. Le Clezio's early work made him popular in America, but after he fell off the map for about 8 years in the 1970s, (when he was living with native tribes in the jungles of Central America), and came back literally a totally different writer, he stopped being widely reviewed.

Seriously though, do not let his early work turn you off. There is literally nothing in common with between The Interrogation and Onitsha. He had a personal crisis and completely changed, his work became more about exploring more emotional stories in straightforward, lyrical prose. It made him more popular with the General public, but from what I can tell it received split critical response, but then again what do critics ever know.

Le Clezio is arguably the most popular and most accomplished French writer since Claude Simon died in 2004 or 2005, I forget. I urge you to read something other than his first novel, written 47 years ago, before you make a judgment. Read Onitsha, or read Desert, then make a new judgment. You absolutely have to consider Le Clezio two different authors. There is Le Clezio 1.0, and then there is Le Clezio 2.0

I agree with you that it's not fair to judge an author with just one book, with more reason if it's his first.
So far I've read 3 Le Clezio's book and yet haven't found the great writer that many people praise. The Golden Fish was the first one I read and so far the one I liked the most. A short novel about the fate of an African girl with no apparent past or identity and the problematic of African immigration to Europe give this novel an interesting point of view and a very entertaining read. A good book, but that's it. This book dates from his lata period, written in 1996 and in this book I can see a mature writer.

After this good experience of a good novel I became more interested in reading more of his ouvre and I decided to go to his early works. I read The Flood, a novel with a strong feeling of existencialism, but very bad driven. The first pages are unbearable and the philosphical ideas he takes as the book advances are a huge obstacle for the book's prose to establish and develop a good story.

After the disappointment of his early works I thought it was better to return to his late works and picked 1995's Quarantine, a book that connects with his family roots in Mauritius and an European ship that stays in an island for a long time, questioning the values and thoughts of European with their relations with natives and an analysis of civilization and savagery. It doesn't sound bad, but trust me, it is. Over 500 pages of saying the same chapter after chapter, character with no depth and a story that lacks any emotion that takes you directly to boredom.

I'm not through with Le Clezaio though. I'm still willing to read Desert or Onitsha from what I've heard good reviews, but now, personally, he's a stil a no no for the Nobel.
 
Re: The Nobel Prize

I'm curious to get everyone's opinion of the first pages of Desert - they can be viewed on the Amazon page I linked above, here it is again:

I suspect some will dislike its long windedness, but I find it remarkable: it's just pages and pages of some people walking through a desert, yet it's very engaging.
 
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Liam

Administrator
Re: The Nobel Prize

Die Kinder der Toten is probably her best novel, and it's frightfully well written and conceived.
I checked it out in the Russian translation (no English equivalent as yet) and found it unreadable.
THAT control of language and literary knowledge is really really rare, her language is so absolutely stunning and unique that I'm always rather doubtful it can be translated well.
You keep saying this, but what is so special about her control of [the German] language?

I believe that an overdose of Jelinek's prose can, in some cases, be lethal. I've read two of her books so far: more than enough to last me a lifetime.
I demand a poet. I wouldn't be unhappy about Hill or Muldoon, but I WANT Ashbery to win.
Is anyone else here perturbed by the fact that you need a fucking dictionary to read Ashbery? The dude needs subtitles, yo! I don't know. Real poetry used to be different.
 

Mirabell

Former Member
Re: The Nobel Prize

Right. Because Milton and Spenser are so easy to read. I'm currently wading through the Fairie Queene, fairly exhausted.
 

waalkwriter

Reader
Re: The Nobel Prize

Touche Mirabell. Liam, I think you just got stabbed with a loaf of pumpernickel bread.

Also, I'm just going to give you a cyberslap to the head mirabell, and hope that knocks enough sense in you to find any one of a thousand modern works of literature that are more accessible and have more value, and are less moralistic and dogmatic, than The Faerie Queen.
 

Mirabell

Former Member
Re: The Nobel Prize

Of which Ashbery said, incidentally: "it's great fun; it's like a comic book that never ends" :D


It IS fun, one of the best single works of poetry I've read in recent years. I might even like it more than Milton. The Fairie Queene is astonishing, but it takes care and concentration, it's exhausting if you read it along a dozen other books. That I'm reading it at all is because a friend who writes his phd on the Renaissance poets suckered me into it by making me read the "Epithalamion" and hooking me on Spenser.
 

Liam

Administrator
Re: The Nobel Prize

Liam, I think you just got stabbed with a loaf of pumpernickel bread.
Hardly. I love pulling M's leg, :D. He don't mind, do you, M?

Besides, it works every time: he always rises to the challenge--

(That's because he knows I do it with love).
 

Liam

Administrator
Re: The Nobel Prize

...he doesn't think I'm into sodomy :D
The truth is, kid: nobody knows what you're "into," because you've never said: boyz, girlz, neither, both? I assure you, any of these choices are absolutely fine at this board, :).

But then again, maybe you're an aromantic asexual (in which case, don't despair, Keri Hulme is one too!)
 

waalkwriter

Reader
Re: The Nobel Prize

For a second there I thought you called me aromatic, which left me thoroughly confused. That and I don't know who Keri Hulme is too.

But as far as being asexual, people tend to assume you're gay then. Am I allowed to pick all of the options above? :D I prefer ambiguity, it is the way if the ninja :p
 

lionel

Reader
Re: The Nobel Prize

But as far as being asexual, people tend to assume you're gay then. Am I allowed to pick all of the options above? :D I prefer ambiguity, it is the way if the ninja :p

Well spoken, keep your mystery. Personally, I've never had the slightest sexual desire in my life. That's what's kept me going, and I'm still fit and in the peak of health at 110. (I don't know what all this has to do with the Nobel Prize though.)

BLOG
 

anchomal

Reader
Re: The Nobel Prize

I'm presuming there's a general consensus that Nabakov and Borges should have won (anyone disagree? {probably :D}), which brings us back to the "who didn't deserve it" question, 'cause there ain't room for those two in there at the moment.


Do you consider it a travesty that a particular writer (let's stick to living writers, for convenience sake...) has so far been overlooked by the Nobel committee? Anyone unanimously favoured?
I suppose we'd have to consider several factors:
Is it a politically motivated prize or not? That surely has to be taken into consideration and it may rule out many fine writers.
Then, should age matter? Should the likes of, say, Mario Vargas Llosa have gotten the nod over Pamuk or Muller, who probably do have plenty of time to win?
Every year, dozens of names are put forward as possible winners and it seems to be something of a lottery.

Another thing that puzzles me about this prize... Saramago won in 1998. Gunter Grass won in 1999. Does that mean Grass was, essentially, a runner up to Saramago in '98 and therefore did the committee consider Saramago to be a better writer than Grass? Or is each year's round of canditates treated completely separately? Until we have this sort of insight into how the winners are chosen, I suppose there is really no way of knowing who might win in the future.
 

waalkwriter

Reader
Re: The Nobel Prize

Well spoken, keep your mystery. Personally, I've never had the slightest sexual desire in my life. That's what's kept me going, and I'm still fit and in the peak of health at 110. (I don't know what all this has to do with the Nobel Prize though.)

BLOG

Ah, what was Neville Chamberlain like :p
 

Liam

Administrator
Re: The Nobel Prize

...what all this has to do with the Nobel Prize though.
The thread's been queered, that's what, :p.
For a second there I thought you called me aromatic, which left me thoroughly confused.
I'm sure you're that, too, luv.
Do you consider it a travesty that a particular writer has so far been overlooked by the Nobel committee?
Mary Oliver. Writes beautiful, intricately-constructed but nonetheless easy-to-read poetry. Politically, let's see: she's a woman, a lesbian, a leftist, an environmentalist. (And a recent Christian convert, which may have jeopardized her chances with the Committee?).
...should age matter?
If we're talking about a Georg Buchner or Keats, then no.
...is each year's round of canditates treated completely separately?
Personally, I think they have a kind of perennial pool of possible candidates to choose from. I also think that the Prize has become deliberately political over the years, so they award mostly those writers whom they deem to be appropriate winners for that particular year. It is curious that both Pinter and Jelinek had won their awards AFTER their tasteless bitch-slapping exposes of [so-called] American imperialism.

Pinter railed against the US in front of a microphone till he was blue in the face, and Jelinek published a play. Their views are their private business, of course, but it is curious that they were suddenly noticed and reappraised by the Committee after their politically-driven anti-American attacks, not before.

[The shit's been contagious, Margaret Drabble has been seen doing the same thing lately, although I doubt she will be awarded with anything any time soon. The woman is about as subtle as a burp.]

Lessing was awarded because she already has one foot in the grave (and the second one is on a banana peel). I guess they figured she just HAD to get some sort of recognition, for old times' sake, and before it's too late.


[Waiting for Mirabell to respond with: Rant, rant, fucking rant!]
 
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